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Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by johnpowell on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:29AM (#17263604)
I am a licensed electrician in a few states. When the whole 2008 economy collapse thing happened a lot of us tradies went to work for Home Depot. The pay was shit but it payed the rent and helped with food.

There are actually a fair amount of skilled people working there.. Even today. But if you ask where you can find a light switch they will point you in the right direction. They won't dig deeper unless you ask.

Here is what terrified me. I started around four years after youtube. Now everyone was a electrician because wanglover76 posted a video of how to install a ceiling fan and tie it into a dimmer.

It is pretty hard to convince a person shopping at home depot that their weekend project will probably kill their children.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by blackbrokkoli on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:41AM (#17263646)
Honest question: How to decide wether or not you can do something yourself?

Like, it's technically required to get an electrican to change a light bulb - but who does this? So what is ok? Where is the line between setting up a desk lamp and stealing electricity from your neighbour with a screwdriver?

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by colanderman on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:06AM (#17265481)
Experience. Start with the simplest of things: replacing a standard (non-GFCI) receptacle. Buy a book that tells you how, or learn from someone who knows. (Both is best.)

Don't guess at anything. If the book doesn't say exactly what to do in the situation you're in, hire an electrician. (This sounds overly cautious but really – if you're doing something even slightly "novel" then there's either going to be code issues you aren't qualified to judge, or actual electrical issues you aren't familiar with and don't even know to think about, like grounding issues.) Thankfully, most situations a homeowner will encounter aren't left up to interpretation by code, and are therefore covered in a good book.

Move on to similar things (say, replacing a simple switch or GFCI receptacle) when you feel you have enough experience.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by pitaj on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:06AM (#17266142)
When I was young (< 14yo) I bought a book at Lowe's called "The Complete Guide to Home Wiring". Of course, this was abnormal but I had an extreme curiosity about electricity. (I still do which is why I'm an EE now)
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by varjag on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:58AM (#17263721)
Here (Norway) it's whenever it involves the work on the mains panel or on unterminated power wire. You can change ceiling fixture if it has a clip in power socket, you can of course change lightbulbs (doubt it's licensed anywhere in the world), you can even install electric flooring that clicks to connect. You can't do anything that requires tying or soldering power wire together, and you can't install hidden cabling/channels and fixtures yourself (fire safety reasons).
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by 0xfeba on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:34AM (#17266453)
I find that hard to believe. In the US you can't market yourself as an electrician/handyman unless you are licensed.

But you can fix you or your neighbors outlets all you want.

The distinction is drawn at being a business vs yourself. But, we still have that individualist spirit, so I could be wrong about other places.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by acranox on Saturday June 09, 2018 @08:29AM (#17272694)
In some cities you would need a permit to replace an outlet. And only licensed electricians are allowed to get permits. In some cities bad wiring jobs don’t just burn you own house down, it’ll take the neighbors house with it. So it’s not just your butt on the line if you screw up.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by varjag on Saturday June 09, 2018 @05:01AM (#17272164)
People do that anyway, just that you'll have tough luck if it comes up in an insurance case. Or worse if you are in a condo and other people suffer.

Wiring and outlets are simple enough, but you wouldn't believe peoples' capacity to botch things up. They'd connect a ground pin socket in place of non grounded one without changing the wiring, or use incorrect section wire, or with incorrect insulation type for in-wall application, or they'd replace a charred outlet without trimming the sooted part of wire. Enough nuances to avoid amateur work.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by amalag on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:08AM (#17264886)
So can you change an electric outlet? That means turning off the individual circuit (or mains if you are paranoid) then opening, disconnecting, connecting a new one.

What about installing a ceiling fan? Assuming the wiring is already there.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by varjag on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:47AM (#17265282)
No you can't change an outlet yourself, legally. And ceiling fans are really uncommon in Norway.

But am sure plenty of people do small fixes anyway.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by lotsofpulp on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:12AM (#17263775)
Does that include running Ethernet or HDMI and other low power cables?
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by varjag on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:46AM (#17263947)
You can put exterior signal cables yourself. The wall conducts for such cables still have to be put in place by electricians I believe, but not 100% sure.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by yason on Friday June 08, 2018 @06:53AM (#17264184)
Most likely you can freely do the installation yourself but it has to be connected or maybe just cross-checked and then signed off by a certified electrician to become a legal installation. That's what homeowners commonly do to save money.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by walshemj on Friday June 08, 2018 @12:03PM (#17266750)
Even for cat5/6 installs ?
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by pdpi on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:31PM (#17269433)
That cat5 cable seems like a safe enough thing but it’ll wreck your day if it shorts something else carrying more juice.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by zip1234 on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:59AM (#17265410)
You don't need wall conduits for low voltage cables. The 'boxes' for them are just meant to hold a cover in front.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by jules on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:05AM (#17263749)
Modern safety features shut it down if current goes into the earth, so the most dangerous is if you touch both wires and are well isolated from the earth. This makes you look like a light bulb to the safety features. The other danger is that it sets your house on fire a week after you've "fixed" something.

That said, as a kid I played with 230v electrolysis (stupid I know) because my 30v version was too slow. This is basically the worst case scenario: electrodes close to each other + water + combustible gas + potential for sparks + deadly voltage, but the safety system shut the power down immediately when something went wrong.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by colanderman on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:41AM (#17265212)
> Modern safety features shut it down if current goes into the earth

What? No, that's only true for GFCI circuits, which are not the norm in the US (typically only found in bathrooms and kitchens, though the NEC has been slowly expanding the requirements). Touching hot can kill you and the breaker box won't care.

Actual safety advice:

1. Buy a current sensor. They're like $5 from Home Depot (speaking of).

2. Turn off the breaker, and make sure it's the right one by using the current sensor.

3. If you're in a situation where you cannot turn off the breaker, wear rubber-soled shoes, and work with one hand and place the other behind your back. (This prevents current from traversing your chest cavity.)

4. Buy a receptacle tester (again, $5) and use it to test your work.

5. If any of the above is not obvious to you, hire an electrician.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by toasterlovin on Friday June 08, 2018 @12:41PM (#17267183)
And, like red, green refactor, make sure the current sensor correctly detects current before you turn off the breaker. Then make sure it detects no current after you turn off the breaker.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by jules on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:09PM (#17268721)
Oh, where I live they were made mandatory something like 50 years ago so I assumed they were standard in every developed country because they cost $30 a piece so why not? Much better life extension value for money than a medical checkup. I wouldn't want to live in a house where every appliance is a potential death trap. They might even pay for themselves purely in cash if they save you an appliance. Mine activated just last week when someone dropped water over the power extender contact and still proceeded to turn it on.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by colanderman on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:25PM (#17269829)
Ya the US is somewhat behind other countries electrical-safety wise. Another weird thing – all our receptacles are flush, not recessed, so the prongs are still exposed after they've made contact, when the plug is halfway in.

This is compounded by the problem that Home Depot still sells, e.g., non-tamper-resistant receptacles. They are no longer code compliant, but they're by far the cheapest and I've no doubt they end up in the homes of tons of DIYers.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by bluGill on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:51AM (#17265331)
I get a permit for my work, and the inspector comes to verify that I do it right. I sometimes make small mistakes, but the inspector gets me to correct them before something goes wrong.

I have also read several books; watched several videos; and watched other people do this work. Over time I've picked up a number of things, and the different sources helps ensure I can pick up on what is correct vs what looks like it works but is wrong.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by icebraining on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:35AM (#17263875)
Has there been an epidemic of dead children since YouTube came around?
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by shaftway on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:49AM (#17263674)
I've had such terrible advice that I've quit going to Home Depot altogether; I spend the extra 3 minutes to drive to Lowe's. And it's from the exact opposite of what you describe.

I needed to run a bit of low-voltage wiring from the house to a sprinkler controller. I knew to use the dark grey PVC-like conduit (is it actually PVC? I have no idea). I had everything I needed except the glue. I've seen electricians run the same stuff and I knew the glue they use was clear, not blue like it is for water pipes, but I couldn't find that glue near the conduit.

I asked the guy in the electrical department with a thing on his apron with "ask me about electrical stuff" written on it. He spent the next 5 minutes trying to talk me out of using the correct glue, and instead he told me to go get some 2-part epoxy and use that. The kind of epoxy that expands, and would crack the rigid pipe, and has zero guarantee of standing up to water.

In the rare cases I do have to go to Home Depot I either ignore anything anyone there tells me, or I tell them I rent (because that way they won't try to sell me solar).

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by sokoloff on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:41AM (#17263910)
> dark grey PVC-like conduit (is it actually PVC? I have no idea)

It is.

> I've seen electricians run the same stuff and I knew the glue they use was clear

The solvent ("glue") is more typically grey than clear IME for PVC electrical conduit. For PVC electrical conduit, it's a one-step process (no primer needed).

For PVC water or DWV pipe, it's a two-step (primer and solvent-glue) process; it's the primer that is typically colored and the solvent typically clear. The color in the primer is to facilitate inspection afterwards and the pipes are typically hidden. Electrical conduit is often visible where installed, and there's less tolerance to have the staining from the primer step used in water piping.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by hajile on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:14AM (#17265568)
That's somewhat incorrect. 90% of PVC pipe is buried in the ground because it can't be in an exposed area "subject to physical damage" which basically limits you to underground or in the ceiling (usually interpreted as over 8 feet above the finished grade). In addition, the NEC requires PVC to be supported every 3 feet whereas EMT only requires support every 10 feet. You'll also see a lot of bending PVC with heat boxes (which often leaves dark patches). As an added bonus, PVC sun rots. PVC pipe and boxes (esp schedule 40) become extremely fragile after a few years in the sun (you can break it by accidentally bumping it).

Running PVC looks unprofessional. It's generally true that if an electrical installation looks good, it is good. If you're running PVC everywhere above ground rather than EMT, you'll be in for a very difficult time when the inspectors arrive.

The glue is not for water-proofing (it's to keep the pipe from breaking apart -- esp during wire pulls). If it's underground, you'll be using THWN (waterproof), so the water doesn't matter. For that reason, no primer is needed. The reason for "electrical glue" is that it's much lower quality and much cheaper (you'll see contractors use whichever glue is cheapest regardless of color).

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by sokoloff on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:28AM (#17265728)
> [PVC rigid conduit] can't be in an exposed area "subject to physical damage" which basically limits you to underground or in the ceiling (usually interpreted as over 8 feet above the finished grade).

NEC citation for that, please? I see it used outside all the time, including in utility service entrance usage (which I cite because I suspect is overwhelmingly likely to be inspected) and many landscaping applications where it doesn't corrode like EMT. I believe it is suitable for use in such locations where the conduit is identified for that use.

Completely agree that buried PVC is a wet location; that's clear from code and I never argued otherwise nor argued that PVC solvent was for water-tightness in electrical application.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by hajile on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:59AM (#17266706)
I looked it up (I read the code a lot when working in that field, but that was well over a decade ago now). Physical damage is in 352.10 (F) and 352.20 (C). Support distance is in 352.30.

To be more complete, Schedule 80 is permitted in areas subject to physical damage, but not schedule 40 (much more common). Likewise the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) has ultimate say. In the area I worked (and in most jurisdictions from what I was told), you had better have a very good reason for exposed PVC outside of service entrances or similar.

EDIT: for sake of thoroughness, At a service entrance, you have overhead and underground. Overhead will be using RMC (rigid metallic conduit) to the meter. You can usually get permission to use PVC from the meter to the outside shutoff (required for non back-to-back panel installations) and can usually run a couple feet of PVC from there to turn under the house. I saw someone run an outside exposed PVC from the panel to the HVAC and it got called immediately (bury, put in the wall, or switch to EMT). With trailer installs, I've seen them permit a jump from the pole to the trailer above ground if a box was built around the PVC at the crossing.

It's worth remembering that the NEC is both a minimum requirement and a suggestion at the same time. The AHJ is given a lot of leeway because the minimum requirement doesn't fit every situation. Likewise, loads of districts use outdated versions of the code (that may not sound big, but things like AFCI (arc fault breakers) in bedrooms still isn't required in a lot of districts because they are on the 199x or early 200x code).

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by danielvf on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:50AM (#17266604)
Section 352.12(C) prohibits PVC for installations where “subject to physical damage” unless identified for such use.

However, the meaning of "subject to physical damage" is supposedly a little loose, and most documents/training I've seen calls a typical vertical outdoor electrical service entry allowed.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by bluGill on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:01AM (#17265437)
You can get clear primer for water PVC. If the inspector trusts you he will let you use it. However if the inspector has any doubts about your abilities he will demand you use the purple stuff (including rip out all your work that is probably perfectly good just so e can see you used the primer). The purple is just a dye, it serves no purpose other than to inform the inspector that you used it.

The reason you don't need primer on electrical is the connection is only required to be mechanically strong - water leaks are just fine. If there is any possibility of water getting into pipe you are required to use wires that have a waterproof insulation.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by fma on Friday June 08, 2018 @08:37AM (#17264682)
Im from Atlanta..head quarter of Home Depot and have a few colleagues who were long time Home Depot employees. From what I was told, after the founder retired one of the new CEO (I think they've had a few and I forget who made the decision) decided that they didn't need to pay for knowledgeable employees and instead hired regular stock person, employees, rather than those who have experience in construction world. This is why your experience there sucks now.

Go to ACE if you want someone that knows something.

Edit:It was former CEO Nardelli.

From Wikipedia "Nardelli was notably criticized for cutting back on knowledgeable full-time employees with experience in the trades and replacing them with part-time help with little relevant experience"

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by shaftway on Friday June 08, 2018 @12:38PM (#17267139)
Honestly I'd be fine with that if they admitted it. I have way more respect for someone who says "I don't know" than someone who doesn't know but tries to pretend they do.

I've had good experience at ACE, but they are typically smaller so I get less selection if they even have what I want, and in my area they tend to be more expensive. I trend towards Lowe's because the staff will give me the "I don't know" answer.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by massysett on Friday June 08, 2018 @07:27AM (#17264296)
The solar! Obviously Home Depot gets a cut of this. It's amazing to me that they think it's a good idea to have people prowling their stores to harass their customers. Every time I have to tell these people to leave me alone.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:23AM (#17265012)
> It's amazing to me that they think it's a good idea to have people prowling their stores to harass their customers. Every time I have to tell these people to leave me alone.

I think the trick is to convince yourself you want to see one of them - I find with the regular staff the minute I break down and go "ok, I'll ask where to find it" is the minute the orange aprons all disappear, like a gang of fluorescent batmen.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by cglace on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:31AM (#17266422)
Never go to one late on a weeknight. The places are ghost towns.

Unless of course you want to not be bothered. Then it's a great time to go.

Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by lscotte on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:15AM (#17264941)
I have the same experience. I've had these annoying people chase me around the store until I've had enough and have to rudely tell them to stop harrassing me. I've complained to store management several times, but I guess Home Depot doesn't care about customers all that much.
Re:Home Depot stocked shelves with empty boxes in its early ... by planteen on Friday June 08, 2018 @09:40AM (#17265189)
I tell them, "Sorry, but I rent." Gets them off my back immediately.