News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by organsnyder on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:28AM (#17256007)
What does the CEO of your company make?
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by snikeris on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:38AM (#17256102)
A lot more than me, but that's not him taking my wealth. I'm in a voluntary relationship with his company, I've agreed to my salary, and if I'm unhappy with my pay, I'm free to find other work.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by duozerk on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:54AM (#17256256)
He's (well, the shareholders) still taking the surplus value of the work of all employees while they did most of said work. And you may be in a voluntary relationship but for many people, such a relationship is required to survive and it may not be so easy to find work elsewhere (especially when you're not in tech).
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by dbatten on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:59AM (#17256313)
Do you allow for this to work both ways? For example, when the company tanks, the shareholders take the brunt of the losses, while most of the employees (at least the types of employees that are on HN) likely move on to another job at another company without much trouble...

You can't count the upsides for the shareholders without counting the downsides as well.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by duozerk on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:12AM (#17256455)
How do they "take the brunt of the losses" when the company tanks in a limited liability model ? unless you mean the actual loss of their stocks, and (at least most of the time) the lack of compensation for them ? because in that case what they're losing are the very tokens of ownership that allowed them to extract the aforementioned surplus value unfairly - the tokens that in my view should mainly belong to the actual value producers.

That's not to say that investors shouldn't be compensated for their initial risks when an actual funds injection is required, mind you; but them being compensated ad vitam eternam - and more generally, them actually owning the structure - makes very little sense morally for me (and beyond "morally", I don't see how this can result in anything else than progressive concentration of wealth society-wide in the long term).

You also assume people can "move on to another job" without too much trouble; again, that may hold true in tech or similar popular domains but it's far from true for a lot of people.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by fragmede on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:59AM (#17256305)
That presumes the job market is perfectly efficient but inn reality it isn't. Back in 2015 Apple and Google (among others) being convicted of breaking the law to suppress wages. It was broken before that lawsuit however, and you can bet that the job market hasn't magically been fixed since they settled.

http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by lghh on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:44AM (#17256160)
It's not voluntary if you can't eat if you stop working.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by lr on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:00AM (#17256321)
Nor have health care.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by xj9 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:58AM (#17256302)
working is compulsory, working for a particular company is not.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by lghh on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:03AM (#17256355)
When the problem persists to all companies you could work for, does it really matter which one you're at?
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by xj9 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:58AM (#17257020)
it doesn't have anything to do with the company. before companies existed you still had to work to survive. it was of a different nature, but you have always had to gather and manage resources to stay alive.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by lghh on Thursday June 07, 2018 @12:03PM (#17257073)
Yes, and I'm not disputing that. What we're discussing though is the fact that CEOs make around 200x what their employees make and that you are required to help them uphold their standard of living if you want to eat or have health care regardless of which CEO you work for.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by xj9 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @12:16PM (#17257215)
[citation needed]
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by glancast on Thursday June 07, 2018 @01:38PM (#17258171)
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by frgtpsswrdlame on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:02AM (#17256347)
>I'm in a voluntary relationship with his company

>I'm free to find other work.

A corporation is a model of communist dictatorship. The higher-ups control the means of production, they take your labor according to your ability and give to you your need (as determined by them.) In the sense that existing in a communist dictatorship is 'voluntary' then your work for the company is voluntary. And in the sense that being able to move from one communist dictatorship to another communist dictatorship is free then you are free.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by js8 on Monday June 11, 2018 @10:48AM (#17284673)
> A corporation is a model of communist dictatorship.

That explains why communists revered Marx! He explained to them how it all works!

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by influx on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:35AM (#17256083)
A lot, but he also provides a lot more value than I do.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by typon on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:45AM (#17256174)
The level of stockholm syndrome of the American worker is astounding and depressing
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by Drakim on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:37AM (#17256099)
But does he provide x200 more value than you?

Think of it this way, if there was two hundred of you all working together, would he still be adding more value than you?

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by mi100hael on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:49AM (#17256209)
Most likely, yes. The CEO is the public face of the company. (S)He attracts both investors & customers either through direct hands-on interactions or by providing stability and confidence.

Put it this way:

- Would you feel comfortable investing your money with a company run by 200 engineers?

- Would you feel comfortable entering into a contract or purchasing agreement with a company run by 200 engineers?

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by jimbofisher1 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:32AM (#17256702)
https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

Its totally not because the 1% has captured all the value created by increased productivity over the past 50 years. Definitely not.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by 013a on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:07AM (#17256399)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. A thousand times Yes. At least in a healthy company.

What exactly do you think separates companies like Oracle and Microsoft? Oracle has hundreds of very talented engineers. But their position in the market is stagnating.

This is hard for HN types to accept, but Engineers are not the people in software companies producing value. No individual person is producing value. Its a combination of the leadership who can lay down a plan toward something that produces value, and the line workers who can actually produce it. Both are necessary.

Here's the difference: If you need to replace an engineer, go for it. Who cares. There are millions of us. We're code-monkeys. If you need to replace a CEO, you better be careful. Github couldn't even find a good CEO, so they sold out. If you're not careful, you might get a Larry Ellison or a Marissa Meyer instead of a Satya Nadella or a Tim Cook.

Successfully leading companies legitimately requires personality characteristics that are present in less than 1% of the population. I would guarantee that if we dissected the brains of enough C-suite people from successful companies, we'd see some sort of genetic or brain matter similarities, probably something resembling sociopathism.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by twirlip on Thursday June 07, 2018 @02:05PM (#17258475)
I don't think the marketplace makes a distinction between "good" and "bad" CEOs with regards to pay, compensation, and rewards. Stock valuations are speculative and a declaration of faith that you can sell the stock for more than what you paid. Good leadership is often unrecognizable until there's a crisis.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by 013a on Thursday June 07, 2018 @06:00PM (#17260674)
That's roughly true. And there's a good reason behind it: Its very difficult to tell when someone will be a good CEO. Hell, its really difficult to tell when anyone will be actually great at the job they're being hired for.

At least with an engineer, you can be hired by someone who could more-or-less do the job you're being hired for. Senior engineers hire entry-level devs. The CTO hires team leads. Who hires the CEO?

Often, there's no one in the company who is adequately prepared for that role, because the role doesn't have a job description. It doesn't have bullet points of what you do every day. Your job is to lead the company, set the expectations, set the results, for everyone else. That's the role of the c-suite.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by pascalxus on Thursday June 07, 2018 @01:29PM (#17258072)
i think we over-attribute the success's of companies based on the talent of both their CEO and their employees.

Here are some examples: I've worked in the gaming industry at big company for 5 years. I've seen a ton of games fail and few succeed. I was on the most successful game team that made hundreds of millions of dollars. And, I don't believe our team was more talented than all the other teams. We simply had the right market timing with exactly the right game, inexorably leading to an enormous success. Within this company many other teams built clones, executed just as well if not better and yet, none of those games received the success as the first one with the right timing.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by 013a on Thursday June 07, 2018 @06:03PM (#17260703)
"I've always found that the harder I work the more luck I seem to have."

Market acceptance controls whether a company might fail. It doesn't control whether a company might succeed.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by chaseha on Thursday June 07, 2018 @01:26PM (#17258030)
Well said. I think the reason it's easy to feel that people at the C-Suite don't produce value is the "leadership" qualities that matter are very hard to define, and success or failure often doesn't make itself clear until months or years down the road.

As a lower-level employee, sometimes you think that the company would be successful without a leader, or even is successful in spite of poor leadership - while that may sometimes be true, much of what happens at that level is hard to understand unless you've been there

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by artificial on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:47AM (#17256198)
Why not work on starting a company instead of working for people you consider unfair?
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by organsnyder on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:59AM (#17256304)
Many of us have families to support, and can't afford to take the risk (especially with the poor social safety nets in the United States).
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by artificial on Thursday June 07, 2018 @12:34PM (#17257447)
Would you contribute money to other people so they can take risks? If so, maybe consider becoming a backer to a company.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by Analemma_ on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:42AM (#17256135)
In the 1950's, American CEO's earned about 11 times as much as the median employee at their firm. Today it's about 200x. Are you claiming that the gap in value contributed between CEOs and employees has increased by a factor of 20 in that time? Do you have any evidence for this?

Absent any, I think it is much more reasonable to conclude that there's little to no justification for current CEO compensation and that they draw their current compensations mostly "because they can".

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by bitL on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:50AM (#17256217)
You have to keep up with the increasing sophistication of lies enabling business, so perhaps? (not sure I should put /s here as I am torn if I meant it seriously or as a satire; it's kinda blurry these days)
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by tome on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:51AM (#17256226)
Why do boards and shareholders agree to that?

EDIT: So collusion amongst CEOs explains why boards agree to it. Why do shareholders?

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by Analemma_ on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:09AM (#17256412)
Who is on the board? Boards are mostly made up of CEOs of other companies. Agreeing to excessive compensation is a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" situation.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by jimbofisher1 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:12AM (#17256448)
Because they are also CEOs at large companies and also want bloated salaries so they approve them for their counterparts.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by typon on Thursday June 07, 2018 @01:55PM (#17258390)
Because the average shareholder has negligible say in the operations of the company or who makes up the board.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by organsnyder on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:59AM (#17256312)
Groupthink.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by briandear on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:58AM (#17256288)
So what. How is CEO pay any of your concern. It sounds like jealousy. For large companies, CEO pay is insignificant to the total company’s revenues. If the CEO make $1 that would suddenly result in money to pay more to employees. $10,000,000 salary divided among 20,000 workers and each worker gets $200 extra which is and extra $17 per month.

The his focus on CEO pay is nothing more than old-fashioned class warfare jealousy. Think how much more money workers could make if we cut payroll taxes by 20% — a lot more than if they paid the CEO $1. But those on the left complaining about CEO pay would go apoplectic just discussing tax cuts. Because the issue isn’t really about pay, it’s an ideological thing.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by jimbofisher1 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:18AM (#17256541)
Aww how cute, the CEO defends paying his employees 50,000 while he makes 10,000,000. "Its just jealousy folks!"

I'm sure Louis XVI was thinking the same thing right before the public summarily removed his head from his body.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by CamTin on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:45AM (#17256170)
Could somebody else provide the same amount of value (as your CEO) for a much lower salary? In principle at least, employees (including CEOs) shouldn't be compensated according to the "value" they provide, but instead only paid the minimum necessary to prevent them from quitting, or at least from quitting too frequently.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by tacomonstrous on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:38AM (#17256104)
How is this value being measured? There is no counterfactual.