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Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by influx on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:35AM (#17256083)
A lot, but he also provides a lot more value than I do.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by typon on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:45AM (#17256174)
The level of stockholm syndrome of the American worker is astounding and depressing
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by Drakim on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:37AM (#17256099)
But does he provide x200 more value than you?

Think of it this way, if there was two hundred of you all working together, would he still be adding more value than you?

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by mi100hael on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:49AM (#17256209)
Most likely, yes. The CEO is the public face of the company. (S)He attracts both investors & customers either through direct hands-on interactions or by providing stability and confidence.

Put it this way:

- Would you feel comfortable investing your money with a company run by 200 engineers?

- Would you feel comfortable entering into a contract or purchasing agreement with a company run by 200 engineers?

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by jimbofisher1 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:32AM (#17256702)
https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

Its totally not because the 1% has captured all the value created by increased productivity over the past 50 years. Definitely not.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by 013a on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:07AM (#17256399)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. A thousand times Yes. At least in a healthy company.

What exactly do you think separates companies like Oracle and Microsoft? Oracle has hundreds of very talented engineers. But their position in the market is stagnating.

This is hard for HN types to accept, but Engineers are not the people in software companies producing value. No individual person is producing value. Its a combination of the leadership who can lay down a plan toward something that produces value, and the line workers who can actually produce it. Both are necessary.

Here's the difference: If you need to replace an engineer, go for it. Who cares. There are millions of us. We're code-monkeys. If you need to replace a CEO, you better be careful. Github couldn't even find a good CEO, so they sold out. If you're not careful, you might get a Larry Ellison or a Marissa Meyer instead of a Satya Nadella or a Tim Cook.

Successfully leading companies legitimately requires personality characteristics that are present in less than 1% of the population. I would guarantee that if we dissected the brains of enough C-suite people from successful companies, we'd see some sort of genetic or brain matter similarities, probably something resembling sociopathism.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by twirlip on Thursday June 07, 2018 @02:05PM (#17258475)
I don't think the marketplace makes a distinction between "good" and "bad" CEOs with regards to pay, compensation, and rewards. Stock valuations are speculative and a declaration of faith that you can sell the stock for more than what you paid. Good leadership is often unrecognizable until there's a crisis.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by 013a on Thursday June 07, 2018 @06:00PM (#17260674)
That's roughly true. And there's a good reason behind it: Its very difficult to tell when someone will be a good CEO. Hell, its really difficult to tell when anyone will be actually great at the job they're being hired for.

At least with an engineer, you can be hired by someone who could more-or-less do the job you're being hired for. Senior engineers hire entry-level devs. The CTO hires team leads. Who hires the CEO?

Often, there's no one in the company who is adequately prepared for that role, because the role doesn't have a job description. It doesn't have bullet points of what you do every day. Your job is to lead the company, set the expectations, set the results, for everyone else. That's the role of the c-suite.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by pascalxus on Thursday June 07, 2018 @01:29PM (#17258072)
i think we over-attribute the success's of companies based on the talent of both their CEO and their employees.

Here are some examples: I've worked in the gaming industry at big company for 5 years. I've seen a ton of games fail and few succeed. I was on the most successful game team that made hundreds of millions of dollars. And, I don't believe our team was more talented than all the other teams. We simply had the right market timing with exactly the right game, inexorably leading to an enormous success. Within this company many other teams built clones, executed just as well if not better and yet, none of those games received the success as the first one with the right timing.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by 013a on Thursday June 07, 2018 @06:03PM (#17260703)
"I've always found that the harder I work the more luck I seem to have."

Market acceptance controls whether a company might fail. It doesn't control whether a company might succeed.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by chaseha on Thursday June 07, 2018 @01:26PM (#17258030)
Well said. I think the reason it's easy to feel that people at the C-Suite don't produce value is the "leadership" qualities that matter are very hard to define, and success or failure often doesn't make itself clear until months or years down the road.

As a lower-level employee, sometimes you think that the company would be successful without a leader, or even is successful in spite of poor leadership - while that may sometimes be true, much of what happens at that level is hard to understand unless you've been there

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by artificial on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:47AM (#17256198)
Why not work on starting a company instead of working for people you consider unfair?
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by organsnyder on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:59AM (#17256304)
Many of us have families to support, and can't afford to take the risk (especially with the poor social safety nets in the United States).
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by artificial on Thursday June 07, 2018 @12:34PM (#17257447)
Would you contribute money to other people so they can take risks? If so, maybe consider becoming a backer to a company.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by Analemma_ on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:42AM (#17256135)
In the 1950's, American CEO's earned about 11 times as much as the median employee at their firm. Today it's about 200x. Are you claiming that the gap in value contributed between CEOs and employees has increased by a factor of 20 in that time? Do you have any evidence for this?

Absent any, I think it is much more reasonable to conclude that there's little to no justification for current CEO compensation and that they draw their current compensations mostly "because they can".

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by bitL on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:50AM (#17256217)
You have to keep up with the increasing sophistication of lies enabling business, so perhaps? (not sure I should put /s here as I am torn if I meant it seriously or as a satire; it's kinda blurry these days)
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by tome on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:51AM (#17256226)
Why do boards and shareholders agree to that?

EDIT: So collusion amongst CEOs explains why boards agree to it. Why do shareholders?

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by Analemma_ on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:09AM (#17256412)
Who is on the board? Boards are mostly made up of CEOs of other companies. Agreeing to excessive compensation is a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" situation.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by jimbofisher1 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:12AM (#17256448)
Because they are also CEOs at large companies and also want bloated salaries so they approve them for their counterparts.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by typon on Thursday June 07, 2018 @01:55PM (#17258390)
Because the average shareholder has negligible say in the operations of the company or who makes up the board.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by organsnyder on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:59AM (#17256312)
Groupthink.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by briandear on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:58AM (#17256288)
So what. How is CEO pay any of your concern. It sounds like jealousy. For large companies, CEO pay is insignificant to the total company’s revenues. If the CEO make $1 that would suddenly result in money to pay more to employees. $10,000,000 salary divided among 20,000 workers and each worker gets $200 extra which is and extra $17 per month.

The his focus on CEO pay is nothing more than old-fashioned class warfare jealousy. Think how much more money workers could make if we cut payroll taxes by 20% — a lot more than if they paid the CEO $1. But those on the left complaining about CEO pay would go apoplectic just discussing tax cuts. Because the issue isn’t really about pay, it’s an ideological thing.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by jimbofisher1 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:18AM (#17256541)
Aww how cute, the CEO defends paying his employees 50,000 while he makes 10,000,000. "Its just jealousy folks!"

I'm sure Louis XVI was thinking the same thing right before the public summarily removed his head from his body.

Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by CamTin on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:45AM (#17256170)
Could somebody else provide the same amount of value (as your CEO) for a much lower salary? In principle at least, employees (including CEOs) shouldn't be compensated according to the "value" they provide, but instead only paid the minimum necessary to prevent them from quitting, or at least from quitting too frequently.
Re:America's Startup Scene Is Looking Anemic by tacomonstrous on Thursday June 07, 2018 @10:38AM (#17256104)
How is this value being measured? There is no counterfactual.