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Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by robrenaud on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @10:56AM (#17238225)
This is a bunch of PR nonsense.

> When asked why Tesla has an apparent policy requiring drivers who want their own data to file for a subpoena, a spokesperson framed it as a privacy issue.

> “We handle all customer data in accordance with our Owner’s Manual and privacy policy, which clearly outlines the type of data we collect and the lengths that we go to protect a customers’ privacy in the process,” Tesla said via email, referencing back to a statement on the Tesla website about the company’s data collection practices.

You can pay a third party $1000 to access the data, or Telsa will publicly shame your driving if they think you are in the wrong during a crash, but they really need to fight you to protect your privacy from yourself?

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by Animats on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @01:35PM (#17240064)
That's not even accessing Tesla's data. That's just accessing the airbag system's event data recorder, which is a US-mandated device in the airbag controller, not a Tesla thing.

Airbag controllers have a circular buffer of the last 15 seconds or so of the vehicle basics - speed, steering angle, acceleration, braking. No GPS. That data can usually be retrieved from the wreckage after a crash. This requires physical access to the vehicle. The data is used to analyze airbag failures, especially unwanted airbag deployments, and for crash reconstruction.

Airbag controller data is much less extensive than what Tesla seems to sending back to the mothership.

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by arghwhat on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @11:57AM (#17238904)
Ah, how wonderful that the GDPR is now in place, making this as easy as issuing a subject access request.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by craftyguy on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @12:01PM (#17238947)
Only if you are in the EU. Many Tesla drivers aren't.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by tzs on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @12:39PM (#17239414)
If Tesla has a branch or subsidiary or something similar in the EU, then GDPR applies regardless of where the data is actually processed or where the data subject is.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by breakingcups on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @12:58PM (#17239622)
No. If you're a US citizen* doing business with a US-based company you don't have the right to request your own data, even if that company also does business in Europe.

* and there are European citizen dual passport shenanigans

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by tzs on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @02:21PM (#17240540)
If it is a US company that does business in Europe, but is not established in the Union, you are correct.

If the company is established in the Union, then GDPR applies to all personal data processing it does. See Article 3(1): "This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data in the context of the activities of an establishment of a controller or a processor in the Union, regardless of whether the processing takes place in the Union or not."

The question, then, is Tesla merely a company that is offering goods and services to people in the Union, but not itself established in the Union, or is Tesla established in the Union?

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by cosmojg on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @06:12PM (#17242531)
What does "established in the union" even mean?
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by daniel-alex on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @08:12PM (#17243329)
I read it as based/headquartered in the European Union.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by bdamm on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @06:47PM (#17242766)
In the United States, "The Union" is sometimes a referral to the union of the states, e.g. the United States. I assume you're talking about the European Union, but since I'm a U.S. Person, I'm not really sure.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by rmc on Thursday June 07, 2018 @09:12AM (#17255430)
yes European Union
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by CiaranMcNulty on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @02:36PM (#17240690)
If it has a US subsidiary (which is fairly likely for tax etc) then that entity has to give you your data.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by delinka on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @02:54PM (#17240857)
And who has jurisdiction to enforce that? Can a US citizen (who has never been in the EU) sue in an EU court to compel release of the US citizen's data from the US division/unit/hq/whatever? Does that court have authority to compel the release by the US division? Can the EU court compel a US court to find similarly?

Point: how is the GDPR ever going to be enforced between US citizens and US companies-with-an-EU-presence?

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by moreira on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @03:28PM (#17241170)
Agreed, it’s not likely to be enforced. Note that you cannot sue anyone over the GDPR, however. That is a fundamental misunderstanding that I keep seeing repeated - the GDPR only gives people the right to report companies to the relevant authority. The authority can then investigate and issue a warning/fine as they see fit.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by tzs on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @06:10PM (#17242518)
> Note that you cannot sue anyone over the GDPR, however. That is a fundamental misunderstanding that I keep seeing repeated - the GDPR only gives people the right to report companies to the relevant authority

It also gives the right to to sue. See Articles 79, 80, and 82.

There's a nice summary here: https://privacylawblog.fieldfisher.com/2016/getting-to-know-...

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by wahern on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @08:45PM (#17243491)
That's interesting. Traditionally European law eschewed private rights of action in favor of public regulators, while the U.S. heavily favored private enforcement. But now Europe is increasingly providing for private action. Whereas the U.S. is increasingly disfavoring private action (e.g. limitations on class actions), and attempts to extend public enforcement are failing (e.g. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau).

Here's an interesting law review article examining these developments: The Arc and Architecture of Private Enforcement Regimes in the United States and Europe: A View Across the Atlantic, https://law.unh.edu/sites/default/files/media/rathod_-_final...

Personally in terms of public policy I prefer private action, but maybe that's because I'm American. Private actions are usually predicated on actual, individualized harm, whereas regulators can strong-arm companies without any evidence of actual harm. Theoretically it makes for a better business environment, especially for startups, legal anxiety about nuisance lawsuits notwithstanding[1]. But private action doesn't scale; if you don't permit aggregation of claims (i.e. class actions) then private enforcement can't redress systemic behaviors.[2]

[1] The anxiety is invariably overblown. I think it's because most people's eyes will glaze over when hearing stories about regulator enforcement actions. But stories about slip & fall lawsuits are both legion and relatable; like with terrorism, people develop a false sense of the legal risks and costs.

[2] I mean, it could work without aggregation if you changed the rules of litigation to really streamline individual claims, such as by shifting the burden of proof onto the defendant for certain categories of behavior. Then it would sort of act like a dynamic tax that responded to business practices. Keep your customers happy and you pay a minimum, baseline tax--the cost-of-doing-business that is whatever amount you want to pay out for fraudulent claims, not unlike what businesses already do with accounts payable and shrinkage. Do something that might upset your customers and you'll have to face an onslaught of cases that either require a quick payout or costly litigation. I imagine such a regime would look much like that with class actions, with specialized law firms that identify and aggregate plaintiffs to benefit from economies of scale, and take a cut of the proceeds. But it would still make it much easier for people to prosecute small claims themselves.

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by abritinthebay on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @03:25PM (#17241146)
> Can a US citizen (who has never been in the EU) sue in an EU court to compel release of the US citizen's data from the US division/unit/hq/whatever?

No, they'd sue to get it from the EU one. As it's part of the same company. The rest of your questions are predicated on the core misunderstanding you have of this so don't apply.

> how is the GDPR ever going to be enforced between US citizens and US companies-with-an-EU-presence?

4 percent of the organization's annual global revenue will work quite well I'd imagine.

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by delinka on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @05:35PM (#17242310)
In addition to the other reply, “it’s part of the same company” is incorrect. These organizations are related but aren’t “the same company.” They’re intentionally organized this way. Ireland can go after Apple Ireland, but they’ve got no jurisdiction to go after Apple, Inc in California.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by manigandham on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @04:06PM (#17241524)
You actually seem to be misunderstanding since GDPR is not about having people sue. They can only report companies and regulators take it from there, if they want to. Also 4% of revenue has nothing to do with enforcement and reach of the EU agencies against US companies.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by tzs on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @06:11PM (#17242527)
There's a right to sue, which includes suing for compensation, in Articles 79 and 82.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by rmc on Thursday June 07, 2018 @09:13AM (#17255438)
You don't need to sue in court, you can make a complaint to a covering Data Protection Agency. i.e. where the corporation's office is. They are supposed to take care of it, and they will have the power to force the local company to do things (or fine them).
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by emodendroket on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @12:54PM (#17239581)
If the customer is in the US (or any other non-EU jurisdiction) they don't have to follow GDPR for them.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by nemoniac on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @12:23PM (#17239227)
The GDPR also holds for European Tesla drivers outside the EU.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by stordoff on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @01:37PM (#17240080)
I don't believe that's true. For processors outside of the Union, it applies to "data subjects in the Union" or "monitoring [...] within the Union".

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by dpwm on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @02:48PM (#17240806)
Does this mean that if a US citizen goes on holiday to a country in the European Union, that they are a data subject in the European Union?
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by s3krit on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @03:58PM (#17241458)
Yes, as I understand it, that is correct. When you are in a country that is a member of the EU, your data held by companies is subject to the GDPR.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by cmurf on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @06:01PM (#17242464)
If I go on holiday to an EU country, which (Google) emails, chats, searches become subject to GDPR? All those sent/received only during that holiday? Is Google (or whoever) really going to attach some metadata just to that time frame saying data collected on that date range is subject to GDPR?
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by lenocinor on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @05:24PM (#17242214)
Doesn't this mean that even a US company which explicitly verifies it only works with US citizens must still IP block all of Europe to comply?

EDIT: A nasty surprise that might be, too, if it turns out there was important data via that service that you wanted to access abroad but couldn't.

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by iofiiiiiiiii on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @06:11AM (#17245767)
Only if they actually have a legal presence in the EU. If they are a US company that has no legal entity established in the EU, the laws of the EU have no effect on them.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by lenocinor on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @11:52AM (#17248133)
Thanks for the info.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @11:30AM (#17247919)
> must still IP block all of Europe to comply

It could comply the normal way.

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by lumisota on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @12:40PM (#17239432)
Is this true? Doesn't the GDPR only applied to those within the EU (i.e., resident or not), or anyone, anywhere, if the company handling the data is in the EU?
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by rmc on Thursday June 07, 2018 @09:17AM (#17255468)
No, GDPR only applies if (i) you're in the EU or (ii) the org with the personal data is in the EU.

(i) might be enforible against a US corp if they have something in the EU to do business

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by gameswithgo on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @12:02PM (#17238962)
just drive over to the EU. Is there a supercharge in the atlantic yet?
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by ccozan on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @04:51PM (#17241920)
Maybe the next big thing will be an electric boat with floating chargers powered by an solar array.
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by SilasX on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @02:01PM (#17240330)
I can understand not letting a rando off the street see the data, or taking extra measures to authenticate that you’re the actual owner at the time of the recording, but otherwise “privacy” doesn’t seem like a good enough reason.

More likely it’s “we want to be the only one who can see it.”

Semi-related: Reminds me of the time Amazon promoted a “recommend books to your friends” feature, and someone used it to make a recommendation to me with a vaguely threatening message attached. I asked them who it was and they screamed bloody murder about protecting customer privacy and I’m like “really? Privacy of your identity to a friend you’re recommending a book to? As a feature that you’re allowing to be repurposed into an anonymous messaging service?” (Eventually they relented.)

Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by pooya13 on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @03:30PM (#17241196)
I doubt this will have much positive PR reception. More likely this is to minimize liability cases. However I am not sure how I feel about this. Is it fair to require Tesla to provide data that might increase the chances of liability, but not require other manufacturers to record and report the same?
Re:Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a c... by newfoundglory on Tuesday June 05, 2018 @04:45PM (#17241868)
It is certainly done in many other cases - it is often illegal to withhold information you have without being mandated to collect that information, such as when selling a house with defects.