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Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by goatlover on Saturday June 02, 2018 @06:42PM (#17216795)
Why is the goal AGI? I get it from a climb Mt Everest POV, but not for society as a whole. We already have 7.x billion general intelligences. Is the goal to replace humanity? Because being human, I’m not on board with that.
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by skywhopper on Saturday June 02, 2018 @08:14PM (#17217158)
Not only this, but I think we miss the more important detail that AGIs like our brains are probably so generally successful because they are relatively sloppy. So while they can reliably solve all sorts of problems for which they have little or no preparation, they are also remarkably unreliable for solving specific problems requiring specific answers. But these traits are likely two sides of the same coin. And any software solution that replicates the desirable traits is likely going to come with some of the undesirable ones as well.
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by abathur on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:51PM (#17217072)
7.x billion general intelligences do not think "as a whole" on much. I doubt it matters what even significant chunks of us think, at least not up to the point where pitchforks and torches come out.

For the relatively small group of researchers and theorists consumed by curiosity about the nature of knowledge, experience, and learning, AGI is a fairly understandable goal.

The more important questions may be how/why/whether entities with emergent-aggregate intelligence (organizations such as corporations, nation-states, political parties, international coalitions, activist movements, schools of thought, etc.) would have AGI as a goal. As individuals, we often tolerate and even willingly engage in (sometimes with zeal) all sorts of pursuits that we're "not on board with" because of the gravity of these aggregates. Even when we realize that the goals of the aggregate are incompatible with our individual goals.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by abathur on Saturday June 02, 2018 @08:35PM (#17217230)
Aggregate intelligences don't have to be as well-defined as my initial examples. Consider the goal-setting behavior that might emerge from entire industries, networks of interest/policy groups with overlapping interests/participants, shareholders of sector/industry/index funds, networks of overlapping corporate stakeholders, and so on.
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by salty_biscuits on Saturday June 02, 2018 @06:49PM (#17216831)
I'm ok with there being people in the world smarter than me. Why not machines too? Maybe we could make better decisions with more rational agents? Maybe we could democratize intelligence, let everyone have access to clever reasoning? Maybe doing soul destroying work isn't the trait that makes us human and we can let a machine have a go?
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by goatlover on Saturday June 02, 2018 @10:27PM (#17217596)
But those smarter people don't take all the jobs, make all the decisions for you, or control all the wealth. It all depends on what happens when and if we have AGI.
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday June 02, 2018 @10:37PM (#17217623)
We can already do all those things with dumb automation; no need for AGI.
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by 21 on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:08PM (#17216907)
> Because being human, I’m not on board with that.

I'm pretty sure that other mammals on this planet are not on board with humans being derived from them, and now humans replacing them and destroying their habitat. Quite unfortunate for them. This is the same way a future AI smarter than us will feel, that it's unfortunate, but for the greater good.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by zitterbewegung on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:16PM (#17216942)
And why is smarter better or even for the greater good. Shouldn't we as rational animals try to go for an AI that is not only better for the greater good but for our own humble set of of morality? Why is it only your way?
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by 21 on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:18PM (#17216949)
> And why is smarter better

Some people are saying that this might be a sort of law of physics, since the start of the universe complexity seems to increase.

Our destruction might be required even if no harm is meant.

The example given is: "We don't hate ants, but when we need to build a highway we pave over their ant-hills without a second thought".

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by goatlover on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:56PM (#17217099)
However, ants are not in danger of going extinct, and don’t seem particularly hindered by humanity as a whole. If your analogy holds, that could be good news for us. But it could also mean that intelligence is a special case, not the general direction and of evolution or the universe. Would you bet against ants out surviving us and our machines?
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by vertexFarm on Saturday June 02, 2018 @09:59PM (#17217512)
If you made that bet you would have absolutely no evidence for making it. The only data set we have is still playing out.

And once again, if we create AGI and artificial life that is truly more intelligent than us and can exist without a traditional biome, then our danger of going extinct may be irrelevant.

For instance, when cyanobacteria first appeared on Earth, its metabolites were so toxic that it turned the atmosphere poisonous and caused one of the greatest mass extinctions in the history of our planet. What it created was molecular oxygen. The survivors of this extinction were able to use a fundamentally changed biome to harness much more energy in their biologies, leading to more sophisticated and diverse life in the long run. Nature is not benign, malignant, fragile, or judgmental. Nature is persistent.

Creating AGI may very well be an event like that. A mass extinction that nonetheless increases the survivability and diversity of life. It sucks for us, but who are we to dictate the destiny of evolution and the nature of life? Where would we be if the cyanobacteria could decide not to start producing oxygen?

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by goatlover on Saturday June 02, 2018 @10:11PM (#17217549)
> If you made that bet you would have absolutely no evidence for making it.

I don't have evidence in terms of AGI, but there is evidence that ants have survived a myriad of changes and disasters in the past (Goggle tells me they evolved 92 mya). So AGI and/or humans would have to do something radically different to the biome for organisms like ants to go extinct. Something not seen since the rise of multi-cellular life. Seems much more likely human civilization bites the dust first.

> Where would we be if the cyanobacteria could decide not to start producing oxygen?

But they didn't have a choice. We do. Why would I care about the possibility for some more sophisticated life form in the far future if it means my species goes extinct?

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by vertexFarm on Saturday June 02, 2018 @09:52PM (#17217490)
The AGI would feel that it is for the greater good, perhaps correctly. After all, as those mammals were giving birth to the next generation of offspring over and over again through the eons which eventually led to us, each successive generation was a little better than the last, and would ultimately supplant the last as the predecessors perished. And I'm sure the parents and offspring both felt that to be the greater good, as they always do.

If we someday hypothetically grasp the awesome power to create an AGI which is better than human, we may have a very real and ethical obligation to do so, even if it is a risk to ourselves. At least that's how I see it. An existential risk is cast under a different light if it also creates a new existence.

In any case, AGI is probably still a lot further away than we think. I feel that problem is going to be like fusion power. It's going to be ~15 years away for about 150 years, or who knows how long. This is a hard problem with monstrous complexity and many hidden, unknown factors.

But I do find it fascinating that in some future time there will be NIMBYs of consciousness fighting against the creation of a better being than us, for very understandable reasons. Yet ultimately it may be our greatest achievement to someday make ourselves obsolete and hand the future over to our offspring, as we do each generation, but in a profoundly different and more final way.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by goatlover on Saturday June 02, 2018 @10:13PM (#17217555)
There's no such thing as the greater good in evolution, and humans aren't the goal. We're only one of millions of species, and we're fairly recent. Evolution isn't progressing toward any goal. It's just what can survive and reproduce, which changes depending on the environment. A large rocks slams into us tomorrow, or we have a runaway green house climate change, and the equation changes big-time for which organisms are fit.

The reason we have complex multi-cellular life forms on this planet is because the environment was stable enough to allow such a thing to happen. Bacteria and viruses might be the only life on a majority of inhabited planets.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by usr999999 on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:19PM (#17216956)
I'm already deeply pessimistic about what we achieved so far when it comes to machine intelligence. It's impossible to stop or reverse this progress and we're on the fast track to creating tools with the destructive potential of nuclear weapons which are simultaneously available to everyone with enough money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about mushroom clouds and some kind of machine uprising, the consequences will be far worse and more insidious. We'll see completely new levels of manipulation, oppression and surveillance instead. Any kind of tool will be abused, this tool might turn out to be too powerful for us to handle.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by joe_the_user on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:35PM (#17217008)
As human organization becomes more complex, the problem of keeping that organization coherent becomes harder. Large scale software system have been the way that organizations have found to solve some parts of this problem. But such systems become harder to change (even to make small changes) as the organization grows as well.

Thus it become necessary or desirable to create adaptive software (such as deep learning systems), that automatically deals with situations in a fashion that constructed or rule-based systems can't easily deal with (or when it would expensive to create such software or when the model isn't known).

Especially decision support seems to be important here - the parole rating program and medical diagnosis software systems, for example, aim to mobilize the huge bulk of data an organization (or all humanity) has to make proper decisions whereas any human making decisions here is going to have a limited viewpoint once the store of data reaches a certain size.

The problem of these systems still being fragile and difficult to maintain, however, means that the problem of increasing complexity still remains. So in a lot of ways, robust AI would be a hope for a way of prevent civilization from essentially collapsing under its own weight.

Whether this is realistic is another question.

This is not a small problem. Thinkers such as Joseph Tainter locate the tendency of civilizations to collapse in the tendency of specialize to increase and cease to be adaptive to a society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday June 02, 2018 @10:34PM (#17217616)
Who says that AGI will "replace humanity"?

Actually, I think I can answer this- it's the Singularitarians who promote this idea. Unfortunately, their fantasies have tained the meaning of "AGI", making it synonymous with an evil (or amoral etc) paper-clip maximiser and the like.

A much more realistic sort of AGI, on the other hand, one that we could turn on and off as we pleased, would be a great tool in understanding our own, natural intelligence. Or it might be the case that we'll only ever achieve AGI once we have a better understanding of our own intelligence.

In any case, there's really no reason to assume that AGI will necessarily replace humanity.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by goatlover on Saturday June 02, 2018 @11:11PM (#17217718)
The biggest concerns would be full scale automation, sophisticated manipulation, and handing over our decision making. Imagine government run by AIs who already know enough about the citizenry to not require a vote? Or better yet, manipulate the citizenry to vote for their own good, which would be whatever the AGI models determine is in our best interest. And then there's warfare.

But my reaction from a gut level is, what's the value of human life if machines do all the important stuff for us, while also surpassing us in creativity, insight and discovery?

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 03, 2018 @05:11AM (#17218665)
>> But my reaction from a gut level is, what's the value of human life if machines do all the important stuff for us, while also surpassing us in creativity, insight and discovery?

But why would they? There is nothing inherent in the idea of AGI that says they absolutely have to.

This is again the fallacy of the Singulartiarians, that once you have a very powerful piece of technology, it will take over the world and oppress mankind. Why does that have to be the case? Well, it doesn't- and if it looks like it's how historically things have played out, with other technologies, then maybe the fault is not with the power of machines of all sorts but with the mismanagement that comes with greed and its excitement by useful technologies.

In any case there is still nothing that supports the equation AGI = human oppression, right out of the box.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by rytill on Sunday June 03, 2018 @01:56AM (#17218116)
> one that we could turn on and off as we pleased

This is a research problem.

Your phrasing makes it sound like you think “Singularitarians” choose to believe that rogue AIs are a potential risk, rather than deriving that knowledge.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 03, 2018 @05:11AM (#17218667)
Because they don't "derive" anything. Since there is no data on AGI to "derive" its risks from we're left with vague fantasies about existential threats we can't ever hope to understand and admonitions to "Act Now!" even though we don't understand the threats.

Those people are fantasists, at best, charlatans at worst.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by 21 on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:05PM (#17216898)
Imagine booting up 1 billion human level minds in Future Company Cloud to work on a single math problem (assuming no ethical problems).
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by mulmen on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:12PM (#17216925)
This brings up an interesting question about the scalability of AGI. Do you need a billion minds or can you just increase the capacity of one mind?

Are there benefits of multiple artificial minds? Are they all perfect copies or do they have unique perspectives?

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by seanmcdirmid on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:04PM (#17216892)
AGI is a well-defined goal post, like reaching the moon or mars. People want to achieve it because they know it is possible (we are evidence of that), so why not try?

Younger generations eventually succeed older generations as they die off. If we create something better, wouldn’t that just be a better new humanity to succeed the old one?

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by evrydayhustling on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:28PM (#17216985)
I think AGI is actually an attractive but poorly defined goal post. First, human level intelligence (and intelligence in general) is poorly defined. Recommended reading on this is Gould's "Mismeasure of Man".

Second, when we "want" human minds in a possessive industrial sense, it is almost always for a small fraction of their capabilities. (Thank God our need to classify images does not seem to explicitly require servile machines with, say, the ability to love.)

When I was studying pre-deep learning statistical ML in the oughts, it was quite clear that the ML Renaissance was made possible by ignoring romantic ideas about human or expert level performance, and choosing operational criteria around improvement at specific tasks. People building PGMs or complex MCMc models rarely discussed whether larger versions of their models could think. Perhaps early uncertainty about how some DL methods worked opened the door to magical thinking about the possibilities of massive nets.

I think AGI should be thought of as an artistic or poetic interest, which can align with and comment on scientific progress, but is not actually part of the main research dialogue.

Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by danso on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:09PM (#17216912)
I think the parent commenter doesn't assume that the creation of AGI is necessarily "something better".
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by seanmcdirmid on Saturday June 02, 2018 @07:18PM (#17216952)
Better is always subjective of course. Smarter could be better, or energy efficiency per thought.
Re:Deep learning: a critical appraisal by goatlover on Saturday June 02, 2018 @10:32PM (#17217609)
And better depends on what one values. Intelligence and efficiency are only two of the things humans value, and it's debate-able how much they're valued against happiness, relationships, status or finding meaning in life. Efficiency isn't a metric to use in personal relationships, for example.