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Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by kingbirdy on Thursday May 31, 2018 @12:41PM (#17197744)
I am very happy to take a month of brushing up on algorithms and so on every few years as I want a new job as opposed to an additional several years of school.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by sanderjd on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:39PM (#17198355)
I'm sure I felt like this when I was jazzed at how easy it felt to get my first good job with just a BS. After a few times through the job switch ringer at this point I'm rather bored of it and would much prefer to have a widely respected professional accreditation to point to instead of all the repeated pointless work. But I don't think the extra-school way (like in my nursing school example) is the only way to achieve that; what I would personally like to see is an apprenticeship / craftsman model. I think a PE requires both a master's degree and apprenticeship. Maybe we could do the latter without the former?

But this is idle wishing: the current system likely has to much inertia for real change at this point.

Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by taude on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:27PM (#17198253)
Do you have a family and other dependencies where taking a month off isn't really tenable after you leave your 20s, or whenever you settle down? It seems kind of absurd to take a month off every few years just to practice for a new job, whether the skills you're practicing are relevant or not to said job performance.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by jaredklewis on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:35PM (#17198321)
To me it doesn’t seem any more absurd than front loading 3 or more years of expensive professional school as do many other professions like lawyers, architects, and doctors.

Just pretend you went to law school and have to make monthly loan repayments each month. Put that money in bank account and you will have more than enough savings to take off work for a month every few years.

Median wage for programmers is nearly double the US median household income and has few barriers to entry. If the only downside is having to take a month off work every few years, I’m not complaining.

Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by sanderjd on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:47PM (#17198431)
The model I envy isn't lawyers, it's PEs. Their professional degree isn't exorbitantly priced and the education is very useful for the career rather than busy work (by the accounts of those I know). Once the credential is earned, it is widely respected.

Edit to add: In general, I don't think our system has to be worse than all others for it to be worthwhile to consider what might be better.

Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by geebee on Thursday May 31, 2018 @02:05PM (#17198567)
The business model I envy is actuaries. The exams are rigorous, but leave it open how you wish to prepare for them. I considered this about 15 years ago when I was leaving grad school in engineering. To get through he first few exams, it's pretty clear that you need to understand vector calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations at the level you'd expect from the general undergraduate sequence for most STEM majors. I read that the most common undergrad major for the exams is math, but you're free to take the test if you've majored in something else, and I think you're welcome to self-study as much as you please. You just have to be able to pass the exams.

It's a rigorous exam, but to me, this is so preferable to a 5 hour interview on differential equations, stats, and linear algebra every time you interview. And that's pretty much what we do in software, it's the equivalent of asking a senior actuary to do an integration by parts or a complex derivative at the whiteboard during an interview.

What I also like about this approach is that we'd avoid that situation where a cartel like the law schools can put a 150k, 3 year degree in between talented people and the profession they'd like to enter.

Another thing is that tech exams are very capricious - you can end up with a totally unqualified interviewer, there's really no quality control on the questions or how the exams are administered. A more formal exam could have a lot of benefits, though I do agree that a required long degree program that is $$ would do more harm than good.

EDIT: There's is something that causes me to question some of what I wrote above - I have grown wary of many of the people who want to regulate software as a profession. I'm still stinging a from my collisions with the test-driven development crowd dating back over the last decade. They really were saying that to merely question the value of the methodology should render you un-hireable. Imagine if they got control over formal licensing. I do shudder at the thought. When I think of that possibility, the Wild West approach, unsavory as it may be, seems more appealing.

Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by sanderjd on Thursday May 31, 2018 @11:18PM (#17202345)
I love this comment, both pre- and post-edit. It's definitely a tough problem, wariness is warranted, and there are worse models out there, but the problems are also real and worth discussing.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by jaredklewis on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:58PM (#17198509)
Sure, but doesn’t it require 4 years of school + 4 years working under a licensed PE, then state exams?

It is a very different set of trade offs than what we have in CS, where companies are more than willing to take a chance on bright people with non traditional backgrounds, including people that never went to college or dropped out. As a lifelong self-learner, I’ve certainly appreciated the lack of “credentialism” at tech companies.

The one part of the PE thing that I would like to see borrowed is the exams. If all companies are just running everyone through the same kinds of general CS problems anyway, might as well save everyone time and improve consistency by making a standardized test.

Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by sanderjd on Thursday May 31, 2018 @11:20PM (#17202354)
I don't mind the standardized exams part, but the part I really like is the apprenticeship. Elsewhere in this thread I suggested that maybe we could pick that part up without going all in on the schooling side.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by fjsolwmv on Thursday May 31, 2018 @07:50PM (#17201349)
It's not a month of 60hrs a week of studying. It's a month of doing practice problems after dinner and on weekends instead of watching netflix.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by commandlinefan on Thursday May 31, 2018 @04:40PM (#17200029)
> taking a month off

A month off? I completed an MSCS (including a thesis) while working full time with two young children at home (my daughter was born in between my first and second year). I can't imagine educational/licensing requirements that would be more difficult than that; you can continue your education without dropping out entirely.

Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by sizzle on Thursday May 31, 2018 @06:57PM (#17201056)
Any tips on how you organized your time to pull this achievement off? Congrats!
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by commandlinefan on Monday June 04, 2018 @11:29AM (#17228691)
A very supportive family - I don't think I could have done it if she had been complaining about it the whole time.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by e40 on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:05PM (#17198017)
In the example given, a nurse wouldn't need additional schooling to switch jobs.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by szermer on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:32PM (#17198298)
Everyone in the medical profession needs continuing education (CE) credits. Not much different from certs that support folks need to obtain if they work government/ DoD positions.

https://www.nurse.com/state-nurse-ce-requirements

Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by vonmoltke on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:36PM (#17198332)
CE classes for nearly all professions are a joke compared to the shit software engineers are expected to go through to rehearse for interviews.

As for government work, I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I did government work for 14 years and never needed any certifications. If I had, the company would have paid for it and it would have been on company time.

Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by sanderjd on Thursday May 31, 2018 @01:50PM (#17198444)
Imagine CE credits for things like distributed systems and machine learning as you move along in your career: wouldn't that be more useful than brushing up on that Trie algorithm you'll never implement?
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by fjsolwmv on Thursday May 31, 2018 @07:49PM (#17201343)
Sure. So get that executive masters or Coursera certificate, and then spend an hour convincing an employer that you actually learned something in your course.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by sanderjd on Thursday May 31, 2018 @11:14PM (#17202327)
It would be great if the continuing education most of us actually enjoy doing were a valuable thing to do. As it is, if you want to switch jobs, it's much more valuable to study old things that help with whiteboard interviews than to spend time learning new things.
Re:Google admits brainteasers were useless for hiring (2013) by e40 on Thursday May 31, 2018 @05:44PM (#17200578)
The issue is changing jobs, not keeping up with credits for your current job.