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Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by tumdum_ on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @03:35AM (#17185804)
Wait ~6 months, and you will encounter a case where simple package update will cost you more than that 45 minutes ;)
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by belorn on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @07:09AM (#17186683)
I can say for certain that I have never had a package update interrupting me in the middle of an extremely important moment, and for a very simply reason. I do not update my packages during extremely important moments. I have never had the itch in the middle of a presentation to say "Wait everyone, a update came so lets have you all sit and wait and look while the machine do a 45 minutes update".
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by jake_the_third on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @09:04AM (#17187327)
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but forced updates have already come to linux: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for...

Even applications you'd expect to be native (apt packages) like `gnome-system-monitor` are included as snaps by default in the desktop version of ubuntu 18.04. All it takes is a someone with sufficient authority to make disabling snaps very difficult.[1]

Unfortunately, there are plenty of lunatics on both sides of the fence who think they should have the final say in what you can do with your computer and when you can do it.

[1] E.g gnome developers decided to change the default behavior of the power button, then decided that users shouldn't be allowed to change this behavior: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755953

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by Nadya on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @11:04AM (#17188230)
Has come to Ubuntu flavors of Linux* and it seems, especially, just GNOME? I don't have this problem with Arch and pacman -Syu at my leisure. I refuse to use autoupdating software out of principle and am saddened so many people choose convenience over security.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by gkya on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:02PM (#17188815)
Not only, but Debian wouldn't do this ever too. It's just as easy to run a Debian desktop spin, and it does not have any of the scandals or idiotic decisions Ubuntu has.

This is what's nice with the distro ecosystem. Someone messes their thing up and gives you the middle finger? Say bye and switch to a saner thing. Your apps will work on almost all of the Linux distros (GNU/ or not) and *BSD w/o any effort, and getting them to work otherwise is not only possible, but usually easy.

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by cuckcuckspruce on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:26PM (#17189059)
One of the features of Snaps is that they explicitly automatically update. From the front page of https://snapcraft.io/:

"Automatic updates for everyone"

If you don't want your software to automatically update then don't use a distribution format where the software automatically updates.

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by Nadya on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @01:52PM (#17189899)
The complaint is centered around Ubuntu 18.04 moving to Snaps-by-default and that users are losing control over when they update their applications. Yes, that is easily remedied by moving off of Ubuntu. But avoiding Systemd was also as easy as not using Fedora - for a very short time. Time will tell how popular Snaps becomes for the major distros.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by taneq on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @03:41AM (#17185830)
Maybe, but it's never going to force you to reboot to install some shovelware that you don't want and can't opt out of.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by John_KZ on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @03:54AM (#17185878)
There's a pretty spectacular performance boost too. Microsoft stealing my electricity and computing power to run bloatware and analytics on data they steal from me is just too much. In the past I thought the idea of "really controlling what's going on with your computer" was just purist mambo jumbo, but windows 10 came to prove me wrong.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by tumdum_ on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @04:03AM (#17185925)
Migration of many distros to systemd forced many people to do exactly that ;)
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by Accacin on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @04:13AM (#17185979)
Did it? I must have missed that.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by dpwm on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @05:21AM (#17186267)
There was a little bit of pain but it was nowhere near as bad as some make out. I migrated all my arch boxes at the time just fine and the main work was writing unit files -- which compared to writing init scripts was mainly trivial.

Is systemd the best init system? No. But to some of us it was an improvement over what came before it and it really hasn't given us the trouble that others claim it has given them.

I remember a colleague who ran Linux From Scratch on his laptop who was abhorred by the changes. We spent an afternoon trying to remove the stuff from an Ubuntu VM image he didn't consider necessary and a lot of it was really alien to him. As an fvwm user he really couldn't understand why almost everything needed dbus and pulseaudio. I couldn't understand a lot of the strange packaging dependencies either. And yet these are things that to me have improved real pain-points in linux distros.

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by gkya on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:04PM (#17188845)
Yeah, but at least you can remove it if you want.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by sandebert on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @04:26AM (#17186024)
Really? I've used Linux for ten years or so have never had a problem like this. When I started using it I was really, really worried because I suspected this be standard behaviour really. ”Surely this 'package management' thing will break things all the time?”. But nope, runs like clockwork. (I've always used Debian based distros, if that's a factor.)
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by pjmlp on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @05:02AM (#17186184)
On Ubuntu it occurs a few times that I needed to clean up the dpkg locks.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by imtringued on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @04:32AM (#17186048)
Windows significant issues with the update process. Every now and then microsoft releases their broken updates that cause your PC to enter a bootloop and then you have to reinstall windows. So far this has happened on almost every version of windows that I've used.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by laumars on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @05:23AM (#17186271)
You will run into problems like that on any platform. Want to do a "quick" Windows Update? OK, let's just schedule in 2 hours of downtime. What about OS X packages that aren't in the app store - sure lots of solutions exist but none are without their occasional problems.

While package management is a solved problem (well, on all platforms outside of Windows that is), that doesn't mean that occasional issues will not arise. Though for what it's worth: I run Arch which is about as hands on as it gets without compiling your own packages and it's been 10 years since the last time a package update cost me 45 minutes or longer of my time.

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by gkya on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:12PM (#17188926)
Add to that that you can work while the update is being downloaded and applied; and in the very few occasions where reboot is absolutely inevitable (I have never had such a situation since many years; even the new kernel can wait until I'm done with my things and ready to reboot to bring it online), it's just a reboot, nothing more. With Windows 10, it just blocks you with a screen that has a message telling "I'm doing my things now" and a progress report. Your work is inevitably interrupted.

For example, I sometimes play some games on my brother's Win 10 PC (I don't use Windows on my laptop, and don't want to bother with setting up Wine and the games on it). A couple days ago it wanted to update, and I told it to postpone. Then I left for 15 minutes and came back, there was an update going on. It blocked us out of the computer for the entire afternoon and most of the evening doing black magic behind a soft blue screen.

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by jamesgeck0 on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @02:27PM (#17190210)
While I don't love Window Update's behavior, that particular major update was released about a month ago. Your brother has been postponing it for weeks.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by csdreamer7 on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @04:02AM (#17185921)
Would you elaborate? I have never had that problem with Ubuntu based distros.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by tumdum_ on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @04:39AM (#17186079)
I wish I had that experience. For me update to ubuntu 17.10 broke many things - the most annoying was migration to wayland which brought with it crashes when using multiple monitors via docking station.

Arch seems to have the same problems, and in addition few days ago I discovered that my wifi stopped working (that laptop was docked and was using wired connection for last few weeks but had wifi working before).

The worst part is those are the machines I use for work ;(

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by csdreamer7 on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:24PM (#17189043)
Okay. I assumed you were talking about a simple update itself. Not a system upgrade to 17.10. I know one guy who bragged that he never restarted an Ubuntu laptop in years, just letting it update, suspend and resume, never restarting it. I have had package upgrade issues with Debian Testing and Manjaro (Arch), but never Ubuntu.

Did you disable Wayland? You can easily select X.org on the log in. Or just use 18.04 which went back to X by default.

Also, I think you are being unfair, upgrades on Windows are bad too. You are always recommended to a do a fresh install.

You need to work on describing your actual issues instead of being so vague if you actually want help with things. Like with this:

> Arch seems to have the same problems, and in addition few days ago I discovered that my wifi stopped working (that laptop was docked and was using wired connection for last few weeks but had wifi working before).

I do not know if your wifi gave out on 17.10 or Arch. Arch is it's own bag of worms-for all I know you are running a prerelease kernel on that new Intel NUC that runs poorly on Windows right now due to bad drivers.

Arch breaks a lot on it's own. You shouldn't be using it if you don't intend to fix it. If you want a more user friendly with Arch, try Manjaro.

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by asfdsfggtfd on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @08:27AM (#17187108)
> For me update to ubuntu 17.10 broke many things

> The worst part is those are the machines I use for work ;(

Why are you using experimental OSs on work machines? The LTS versions exist for a reason.

Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by lmm on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @04:01AM (#17185919)
Yep. If you want the "Linux experience" these days you have to move to BSD.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by gkya on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @12:15PM (#17188956)
I LOVE *BSDs, but this statement is just false. The linux sphere is full of very nice experiences. Projects like Void and Alpine are out there, and then there are the gems like NixOS and GuixSD.
Re:Lobotomizing Gnome by aerique on Wednesday May 30, 2018 @03:57AM (#17185900)
You are correct, but Windows and OS X cost me more time in the end because I'm unfamiliar with them.