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Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by mabbo on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:05AM (#17144065)
> However, to store 360 Wh of potential electrical energy, the system requires a storage reservoir of 18 m3, the size of a small room measuring 3x3x2 metres. The authors note that “although the tank size appears very large, it still makes sense for applications in rural areas”.

This would light a home for an hour, with LED bulbs and careful usage. And all it requires is a room-sized storage tank.

So if I wanted something that ran my house all night, I'd need a storage tank larger than said house.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by jandrese on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:41AM (#17144395)
For home use you also have to consider that you're basically making a bomb every time you store energy in the thing.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by ajuc on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:50AM (#17144508)
Any kind of high-density energy storage is basically a bomb.

If you charge or discharge Lithium polymer or lithuium ion batteries "wrong" they explode too.

I wouldn't want to be near a flywheel that stores 360 Wh of energy when it breaks.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by beat on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:09AM (#17144738)
On the other hand, flywheels can be easily buried underground, and easily contained. The max power of a flywheel is known, so it's just a matter of putting enough concrete between humans and flywheel, a straightforward and inexpensive engineering problem. And unlike compressed air, the containment isn't under constant, wearing pressure.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by jandrese on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:25AM (#17144901)
You can bury the air tanks too and avoid most of the danger, but that's expensive and makes them harder to maintain. The big advantage of flywheels is that when they fail you know the energy will be discharged in a particular plane. You can orient them such that nothing vital is in that plane (like your house!). With compressed air all bets are off.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by thebluehawk on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:36PM (#17148666)
SCUBA tanks have a "burst-disk" or a weaker part of the tank that is designed to fail first, rather than the whole thing exploding and launching shrapnel. It's still violent and can throw some shrapnel, but it's much less. Also when SCUBA shops fill tanks they usually put them into a container that would somewhat contain that.

I imagine something similar could be done. It's not like there are zero safety mechanisms with compressed air.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by maxerickson on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:26AM (#17144917)
A berm would split the difference for cost and maintenance.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by Tobba_ on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:54AM (#17145210)
Not necessarily, 1.3MJ (360 Wh; but screw that unit) of diesel isn't much of an explosive under normal circumstances. It really depends on the maximum power output under normal operation, and whether it can occur uncontrollably.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by dredmorbius on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:18PM (#17149647)
Energy density and release rate tend to have inverse relations, for a given energy mechanism.

TNT has about 1/10 the energy density of petrol or diesel. Capacitors have lower capacities than batteries.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by tim333 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:30PM (#17148121)
People say that but searching youtube for exploding lithium ion batteries they seem to make fairly lame bombs. More some flames come out maybe a foot and then they burn eg https://youtu.be/SMy2_qNO2Y0?t=1m57s

I'm not sure they ever explode in a bomb like way?

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by jandrese on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:26AM (#17144921)
Batteries don't explode in anywhere near the same fashion as an air tank, but they do include the added complication of adding a huge conflagration to the mix. So your house is burnt down instead of shattered and scattered all over the neighborhood.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by saosebastiao on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:16AM (#17144806)
360Wh of flywheel is tiny. You could easily bury it and never have to worry about the danger of a failure. Grid scale flywheels are the ones that are scary.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by solarkraft on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:29AM (#17144955)
... and they too can be buried. Seems a bit more attractive than compressed air.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by audunw on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:03PM (#17148386)
Not really. A good bomb has high velocity. Lots of high energy storage methods are slow reacting.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by reaperducer on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:38PM (#17146338)
>For home use you also have to consider that you're basically making a bomb every time you store energy in the thing.

No different than people who have LP tanks outside their homes. Or fuel oil tanks buried in their yards. Or coal bins in their basements. Or natural gas lines coming their house. Or pretty much any other storage method except a dam for your water wheel, but even that can burst and flood your home.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by agumonkey on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:42AM (#17144412)
few mechanical engineer~ youtubers said so many times; compressed gas seems less dangerous than water but compression is terribly dangerous
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by jandrese on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:23AM (#17144877)
This doesn't make sense at all. High pressure water can be dangerous for sure, but water based energy storage doesn't use high pressure... It's all about pumping the water uphill and then letting the water flow back down through the pump to recover the energy. At worst your house gets flooded because the containment vessel failed.

Worst case with compressed air is a total disintegration of the tank, the room it's in, and the rest of the house along with the occupants.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by bluGill on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:54AM (#17145209)
Water is pressurized. The pressure is a function of gravity and depth, but that is still a lot of pressure.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by agumonkey on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:46AM (#17145137)
my english is flawed, I was trying to say that. Water is not pressurized but feel scarier than air for most people, so they go care free around compressed gases.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by jcranendonk on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:37PM (#17145728)
Water is pressurized. However, it is not compressed. That's an important distinction.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by agumonkey on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:37PM (#17146958)
I'm fuzzy and since water is incompressible, "pressure" may not have the same meaning on water than on other substance
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by Cthulhu_ on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:02AM (#17144656)
Eh, at least air isn't as dangerous as e.g. water would be, the tank can be / is designed to fail gracefully and there's overpressure valves.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by jandrese on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:20AM (#17144849)
Huh? Compressed air is way way more dangerous than pumped water. A pumped water disaster is a flood. A compressed air disaster completely obliterates the containment vessel and surrounding room and the overpressure wave and shrapnel are also fatal. I'm not sure how you would design a high pressure air tank to fail gracefully. The air is like a gigantic spring, and once it starts to go it's going to tear the containment vessel to shreds.

There are things you can do to make it safer, like installing the tank at the bottom of a pool or buried under a few feet of dirt, but they add complications and expense.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by JackCh on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:40PM (#17145755)
Failed water lines can ruin your house. Failure of a compressed air vessel of sufficient size could turn your house into shrapnel flying fast enough to endanger your neighbors.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by hedora on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:12AM (#17144116)
I thought this too, but read the rest of the article.

Spoiler alert: State of the art is 30x better

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by test6554 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:41AM (#17144403)
I picture Rick Moranis operating a large space-based vacuum cleaner.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by sandworm101 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:15AM (#17144139)
Or you could liquify the air. That would make the storage much more energy-dense but introduces all sorts of practical/heat issues. People have played around with running cars on liquified nitrogen. The air conditioners probably worked well.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by bdamm on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:22AM (#17144867)
Steam power, in a sense. Now I kind of want to build one, although the crash scenario is just as terrifying as with a hot car. Hmm.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by reaperducer on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:58PM (#17146546)
There are clubs and people all over the United States (often in rural areas) dedicated to building home-made steam powered machines and vehicles.

Unfortunately, these real-life steampunks (not cosplay kids) usually also would rather spend time working on their projects and not documenting them, so there's not very much on the internet compared with the number of people active in the hobby.

Keep an eye out at county fairs and small town carnivals and rodeos. They usually show up.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by pg314 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:16PM (#17145471)
> This would light a home for an hour, with LED bulbs and careful usage.

Do you have the equivalent of 50 LED bulbs (60W equivalent [1]) burning at a time? Do you consider that careful usage?

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Classic-Glass-Non-Dimmable-Li...

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by beat on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:19AM (#17144172)
Depends on the tradeoff. The tl;dr of the article is that there's a tradeoff between pressure and efficiency. You can store at higher pressures in smaller vessels, but it's much less efficient. Low pressure (larger vessels) can be extremely efficient. In between, there are hacks to increase efficiency using heat exchangers and the like.

Beyond that, this is being pushed in the article as a rural/off-grid approach. For urban residential, it makes a lot more sense to centralize storage and run houses off a regular grid, than to try to make each house an independent entity.

In the medium run, we need to shift the grid itself from the current baseline+peak model to a solar+storage model (rolling wind into this), with distributed metering on the storage grid. Capture solar/wind power when the sun shines and the wind blows, and sell it when consumption outstrips supply, with pricing set dynamically on a distributed network.

Once you have that, for on-grid purposes, we'll probably see a diverse world of storage - car batteries, compressed air, industrial battery sites, water storage, thermal storage, etc.

Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by swebs on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:22PM (#17146214)
An LED light bulb uses 11 watts. You must be lighting your home with 33 bulbs if that only lasts you an hour. If you only use 4 bulbs, that will last over 8 hours.
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by F_r_k on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:29PM (#17148599)
My home as got many 3W led bulbs for small lamps. 7W is the norm
Re:Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage by mrfusion on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:06PM (#17145338)
My four lb lawnmower batter stores 120wh. Quite the contrast.