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Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by koolba on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:38PM (#17140266)
> New York recently began allowing taxpayers to convert local property taxes into charitable contributions, which are fully deductible from federal taxes. Other states, like New Jersey and Connecticut, have been moving forward with similar plans to reclassify state taxes as charitable contributions.

If they consider their taxes a charitable contribution I should be able to decide to not pay it.

I know a lot of charities I’d rather give money to then the government.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:50PM (#17140340)
> If they consider their taxes a charitable contribution I should be able to decide to not pay it

You still owe regular property taxes, with all the standard penalties for non-payments. What these laws do is give "municipal and county governments and school districts the legal authority to create special charitable accounts" and then let "local governments offer residents who contribute to the new accounts a nearly dollar-for-dollar property-tax credit, effectively turning their property tax bill, at least on paper, into a charitable contribution" [1].

Your contribution to the charitable account is voluntary. Your property-tax obligation is not.

[1] http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/18/05/06/new-law-lets-loc...

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by throwaway76543 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:38PM (#17140595)
This would be a quid pro quo contribution, already prohibited by the IRS. It's hard to see this "charitable conversion" nonsense as anything other than (potentially criminal) tax evasion.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/substantiating-cha...

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:43PM (#17140624)
That's an oversimplification. "A quid pro quo contribution is a payment made to a charity by a donor partly as a contribution and partly for goods or services provided to the donor by the charity" [1]. In this case, the charity isn't providing the quid pro quo, the local government is.

States are already allowed to let one deduct charitable contributions from state taxes however they like. And visiting a park one donates to isn't considered quid pro quo. These cases will be complicated and interesting.

[1] https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/substantiating-cha...

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by lr4444lr on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:54PM (#17140689)
I don't think you're understanding how this is being constructed: the money wouldn't be going to the government (i.e. directly to the department of finance), precisely for the reason you're describing. That's why they're floating the idea of establishing charitable institutions under a kind of trusteeship in the municipalities as per the bylaws of what those shell entities will be.

EDIT: Stated specifically, for NY: "The Budget establishes a charitable gift trust fund in the joint custody of the New York State Commissioner of Taxation and Finance and the State Comptroller."

[0] https://www.budget.ny.gov/pubs/archive/fy19/enac/enacted-tax...

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:58PM (#17140712)
> the money wouldn't be going to the government

Hence my argument for the lack of a quid pro quo. The charity gets the quid; someone else provides the pro quo. How states and municipalities count their tax obligations could be argued to be local issues, from a Tenth Amendment perspective. (We just had a landmark anti-commandeering case get decided on by SCOTUS.)

Here's a clearer quid pro quo: churches.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by lr4444lr on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:59AM (#17142542)
Disclosure: I am not an accountant or tax lawyer.

In the case of school districts, easily the largest line item of the SALT liability for New Yorkers, The quo would be educational services. Anyone who donates to one of these "charities" and then puts a child in the school system could be at serious risk for tax evasion. It doesn't matter legally if the "charity" is also floated by other revenue streams. It's about what the filer claims and what he receives. I am pretty sure the IRS has a history of formulas to apply for figuring out how much is rendered in services[0]. Per pupil expenditure would be a likely candidate. Perhaps those with no children in the system would be safe.

The analogy with the church would be if they were giving your child a free or discounted on religious school admission as a contingency of how much money you donate. You can't write off donations like that[1]

[0] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8283.pdf

[1] https://www.irs.gov/publications/p526#en_US_2017_publink1000... - "Contributions From Which You Benefit": .... "Tuition, or amounts you pay instead of tuition. You can't deduct as a charitable contribution amounts you pay as tuition even if you pay them for children to attend parochial schools or qualifying nonprofit daycare centers. You also can't deduct any fixed amount you must pay in addition to, or instead of, tuition to enroll in a private school, even if it is designated as a "donation."

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:08PM (#17140772)
How is the charity and the government not the same entity?
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:29PM (#17140865)
> How is the charity and the government not the same entity?

Charities and municipal governments are legal fictions of the states. I do not know the specifics of how these charities are set up. I presume they are ownerless non-profits. (If not, the New Jersey legislature could simply create such an entity type.) Determining common control with municipalities will be tricky.

That they are creatures of the states, and not the federal government, is what will make the lawsuits interesting. The most realistic pathway for the IRS would be to argue these charities do not qualify as such under federal tax law. How they will do this, within the confines of the 10th Amendment and a haphazardly-written tax code, without hitting other charities, will be delicate and complicated.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by throwaway76543 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:14PM (#17140800)
All of this has been tried before with folks trying to funnel profits into charities. The IRS is going to say "no, we're considering these entities to be a single entity" and they may even say "and furthermore it's criminal tax evasion and you're all going to prison."

This is a news article about a notice they've just issued indicating as much.

The law is not a computer program. Being clever about definitions does not often have pleasant results. This approach is unlikely to work.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by toast0 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:41AM (#17141580)
The IRS previously said these types of programs were fine [1], although in a way intended not to set prescedent. There are a lot of other cases referenced in the memo, some of which probably did set some prescedents. State governments could easily set up targeted funds, if just dropping the money into the general fund is a non-starter.

[1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/p526--2011.pdf

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:27PM (#17140855)
> The IRS is going to say

The IRS is powerful. But so are the states. If you think this is a simple case, you're mis-understanding it. Fully expect this to go to the Supreme Court.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by lr4444lr on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:42PM (#17140619)
It also threatens to disqualify a significant portion of income toward the filer's social security eligibility credits.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:28PM (#17140534)
I would be surprised to see a judge take kindly to that type of nonsense.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:41PM (#17140612)
> I would be surprised to see a judge take kindly to that type of nonsense

We're a nation of laws. Not taking kindly to a case isn't justification for a ruling. The tax law was haphazardly drafted and written specifically to increase wealth transfers from surplus states (e.g. Delaware, Minnesota and New Jersey) to deficit states (e.g. New Mexico, Mississippi and West Virginia) [1]. I see valid arguments for both sides.

[1] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2011/08/01/the-red-...

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by dahdum on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:49PM (#17140656)
The SALT deduction was a handout to the most affluent and a subsidy to the wealthiest states. It allowed them to increase their state and local taxes at the expense of federal revenue, spreading that burden across the country.

The tax plan certainly had flaws, but capping SALT was egalitarian IMO.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by closeparen on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:15PM (#17140807)
What does it mean for a state to be affluent? The goods and services governments purchase are presumably purchased in their local markets. It’s not as if a $60k New York police officer or bureaucrat stops more crime, pushes more paper, or lives better than his $30k counterpart in Alabama. It’s not as if a public housing project that builds 10 efficiency studios at $500k each represents a higher level of public service than one that provisions 10 $50k mobile homes. I agree that certain areas have higher and lower concentrations of genuine wealth but a progressive income tax curve already takes care of that. SALT was more like a crude approximation of a cost of living adjustment.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by einarvollset on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:01PM (#17140733)
You can certainly convincingly argue that, but to retain a coherent argument you also now need to tell me how it’s egalitarian that all the states hit by this overwhelmingly contribute more to federal tax coffers per capita (and hence are subsidizing) the states where the $10k cap will have no impact.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by dahdum on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:31PM (#17140873)
Same reasoning actually, they contribute more because they have more. Federal income tax is per person and progressive, so states with wealthier residents will always pay more.

Even a flat tax wouldn't change that.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by noobermin on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:56PM (#17140700)
Spreading that burden to states which have a negative contribution to the fed? The states that utilized SALT on net contribute more in tax to the fed gov't than they take in spending.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by dahdum on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:36PM (#17140893)
When California raised their income tax several years ago, they reduced federal revenue because of SALT. For example, $1 billion in new state taxes would reduce federal revenue by ~$300 million. That shortfall must then be covered by the whole country.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:45PM (#17140926)
> That shortfall must then be covered by the whole country.

When Mississippi cuts benefits for its residents, my federal tax dollars pay for their disability insurance. When West Virginia fails to regulate its industry, educate its residents or build infrastructure, my tax dollars subsidise their choices. TL; DR It is odd to talk about subsidy when they generally flow from those hit by the SALT cap to those benefiting from this bill.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by dahdum on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:00AM (#17140988)
I don't understand what you're arguing for here, why should affluent CA/NY/CT tax payers receive a tax break paid for by everyone else? How would you argue for the SALT deduction if it never existed in the first place?

I also don't see why it's a problem that some states are donors, they have more to give. Federal spending should be progressive, otherwise it simply drives more inequality.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:12AM (#17141031)
I won't argue for SALT per se. I do have an issue with the political logic the Congress used in singling out Democratic states. Furthermore, the bill as a whole was regressive. Arguing for the progressive lifting of a specific subsidy, within the general context of a regressive bill that increases interstate subsidies, is hypocrisy. So is requiring food stamp recipients to undergo a battery of expensive tests while their analogs at governmental level get increased handouts.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by dahdum on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:27AM (#17141090)
I don't think I'm being hypocritical for defending a good policy in a bad bill.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:00AM (#17141217)
Quite fair--my apologies.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by jon_richards on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:53PM (#17140679)
If you donate money to a charity, you get to deduct that from your income for determining your tax obligation.

If you have long term capital gains on a stock, you can donate that stock and not pay tax on the long term capital gains. Additionally, the full value of the stock counts against your income for determining tax.

This type of nonsense is all over our tax code.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by mhneu on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:10PM (#17140458)
https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/bill_russell_once_le...

Charles Barkley:

"Bill Russell called me one time… He says, “Charles Barkley.” I said, “Yes, sir, Mr. Russell.” “You grew up in Alabama. Right?” I said, “Yes, sir.” He says, “Did you go to public school?” I said, “Yes, sir.” He says, “Did the cops ever come to your neighborhood?” I said, “Yes sir.” He said, “Any of the houses ever on fire and the firemen come?” I said, “Yes, sir.” He said, “I don’t want to see your black ass on TV complaining about your taxes anymore.” I says, “What do you mean?” He says, “So now that you got money you don’t want to help other people out, but when you were poor, other people took care of you.” And I says, “You know what, Mr. Russell, you will never hear me complain about my taxes again.”

And it was a very interesting lesson for me, because I do think rich people should pay more taxes. I’m blessed to be one of them, and we should pay more in taxes. I learned my lesson. I never complain about taxes.

----------

"I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization" -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by eschevarria on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:28PM (#17140542)
That people who complain about taxes get some utility from the government activities funded by these taxes does not imply that they are better off with the combination of the services and the taxes than without. If this argument is meant to show that people should not complain about taxes, then it is invalid.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by anoncoward111 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:37PM (#17140589)
in another analogy, we should not praise the house robber for re-arranging our funiture after stealing our valuables
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by RHSeeger on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:51PM (#17140670)
I don't have a problem with paying taxes. I have a problem with the government taking the money I pay in taxes and wasting it.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by mindslight on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:28PM (#17140540)
I doubt those on the receiving end of the bombs share Holmes's sentiment.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by tango24 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:42PM (#17140293)
Wait, property and state taxes are already deductible on federal 1040, right? So why are the states even doing this? The article is paywalled so surely I’m missing some info here.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by asveikau on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:47PM (#17140328)
Last year's tax reform put a cap on that, which is highly inconvenient to people living in high tax, high income or high property value states like California, New York, etc.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by DennisP on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:47PM (#17140324)
From the article:

> The I.R.S. warning comes in response to states, like New York, that have looked for ways to blunt the impact of a new $10,000 cap on the state and local tax deduction, known as SALT. The cap, which was included in last year’s $1.5 trillion Republican tax overhaul, hit predominantly Democratic, high-tax states hardest since it limits the amount of state and local sales, income and property taxes that residents can deduct from their federal taxes.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by Spooky23 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:20PM (#17140505)
The tax reform hit many places hard. You can only deduct the first $10,000. Every suburb of NYC has an average property tax of over $10k, plus most people pay state income tax. These people are doubly impacted by the higher standard deduction, which makes it difficult for all but the wealthy to deduct.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by bcheung on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:09PM (#17140775)
Not sure I follow. The wealthier have higher incomes and higher property taxes due to buying more expensive homes. The $10,000 cap hits them even harder.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by Spooky23 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @05:15AM (#17142337)
If you live in New York, New Jersey, California, etc, a large percentage/majority of homeowners are impacted by the $10k cap.

But you need to clear $24k in deductions (as a married couple) to even take that deduction.

The average homeowner loses, as they can’t cross the threshold, and every marginal state/local tax dollar costs 15-25% more than it did before.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by bcheung on Friday May 25, 2018 @09:26PM (#17159565)
The 2017 standard deduction for married couples was $12,700 (compared to $24K in 2018). So the average homeowner also gets an additional $11,300 tax free. Granted so do non-homeowners.

I don't think the "average homeowner" would complain that they can't take as big of a homeowners deduction when the net result is they are exempting a larger portion of their income regardless.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by lr4444lr on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:46PM (#17140639)
Not following your latter point: isn't the flat rate for the higher standard deduction progressive?
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by Spooky23 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:12AM (#17143602)
Not really.

It’s subsidizing sparsely populated states that either don’t need to or don’t care to provide the state/local services that populated places need.

Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by lr4444lr on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:33AM (#17144323)
What does population have anything to do with it? It's based on income. The fact that more densely populated places have higher per capita service costs is the problem.
Re:I.R.S. Warns States Not to Circumvent State and Local Tax... by evanpw on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:46PM (#17140320)
The deduction is capped at $10k starting in 2018.