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Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by snissn on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:49PM (#17138664)
> Which begs the question - what tokens are actually worth trading in the first place?

I think we're getting closer to tokenizing actual securities. Similar to how TrueUSD is tokenizing U.S. Dollars, I think we're fairly close ( 5 years out) from NASDAQ officially tokenizing their stocks ( as an erc20 on the ethereum blockchain)

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:24PM (#17139786)
Nobody seriously wants equities on a blockchain. Securities need to be able to be split, merged, re-issued, forcibly transferred by courts, et cetera.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by cinquemb on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:25AM (#17141527)
Not a week goes by on Global Custodian[0] headlines for technology that mentions at least a couple well established firms using blockchain for securities of all sorts.

Whether I agree with these developments or not is completely irrelevant. I'll personally stick to pursing a market neutral strategy and exploiting intraday ETF discrepancies for now.

[0] https://www.globalcustodian.com/news/technology/

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by paulsutter on Thursday May 24, 2018 @06:08AM (#17142591)
Harbor and Polymath are working on tokens which can accomplish all those things. The claim is that tokenized securities can reduce the number of middlemen needed to issue new securities, so shares could be traded on individual apartment buildings, etc. Nobody thinks moving Apple stock to a blockchain would change much.

I’m not advocating this argument, just relaying it since you asked.

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by hendzen on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:38PM (#17139884)
If someone can honestly explain why the blockchain would be any better than the DTCC for tracking equity security ownership I'd love to hear about it.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by gomox on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:14AM (#17141491)
Because it allows people anywhere to access the aforementioned security. It also has a lot lower friction for all the participants.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by hendzen on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:15AM (#17142073)
People can access a security today, anywhere. By using their broker over the internet.

Can you give specific, real-world examples about how the "friction" is lower? And what precisely do you mean by "friction" - lower cost? ease of use? something else?

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by gomox on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:00PM (#17146574)
Only if you are using a very narrow definition of "people", "anywhere" and "security".

I am in Argentina. I can make a VC-style investment on a company being founded in Europe tomorrow and resell my shares 3 months from now to another investor in Australia with no middlemen, brokers, filings, etc.

That just didn't work before. It would have been impossible for me to do that. Its also more risky in terms of regulatory protection, of course. But in any scenario ICOs are huge disruption for the VC industry, and if the crypto market matures, I expect that to expand into other spaces.

Specific instances of friction: transferring funds, assigning shares, lack of liquidity of both shares and secondary markets (or, quite simply, lack of markets).

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by wmf on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:05PM (#17140048)
I guess that Overstock guy wants to blockchain equities so that people can't naked short his company.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by hendzen on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:12PM (#17140097)
People already can't naked short sell except in very limited circumstances for market making purposes. It's not as widespread as you think it is. I would suggest reading about Regulation SHO.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by jgh on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @05:51PM (#17138675)
why would they do that?
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by darawk on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:51PM (#17139582)
To eliminate single points of failure, siloing and centralized control. Right now a small group of massive incumbent institutions collect quite significant rents in exchange for providing market access and maintaining custody of funds. This involves tons of transaction costs, slowness, brittleness, mistakes, and of course, severely restricts who by and how these markets can be accessed.

Tokenizing securities can open that up, make it more transparent, safer, and less friendly to incumbent interests.

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by hendzen on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:04PM (#17139663)
What specific transaction costs/rent collecting are you referring to? As a retail investor I can trade stocks for free on Robinhood. My orders get filled instantaneously at the current market price. On other platforms the per-trade fee is a couple bucks, regardless of transaction size.

With Coinbase I pay a MUCH larger fee, that is a percentage of the transaction size rather than zero (with Robinhood) or a low fixed cost. With Coinbase I would pay a ~15 dollar fee to buy or sell $1000 dollars of BTC or ETH.

As far as moving money in/out of Fiat, Robinhood/Etrade/etc also win with near instant transfers if your account is already funded. Coinbase buys and sells take days to clear.

Can you provide specific real-world examples of how tokenized securities can help with "transaction costs, slowness, brittleness, mistakes" ?

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by __blockcipher__ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:20PM (#17139755)
This comment makes me sad. Lots of bad info.

All securities exchanges incur fees, varying based on wherher you’re eating or supplying liquidity. I forget what these are called, but companies like Interactive brokers pass those fees on. Robinhood eats the fees for you.

With coinbase, you pay a 0% fee as long as you use GDAX, which is a no brainer, and place limit orders that are not immediately executable e.g. sell $.01 above the current price or buy $.01 below.

I’m not the parent so I’m not gonna address the tokenization question, but my opinion is that tokenization helps the users (stockholders), but takes power away from centralized exchanges thus the NASDAQ would be kinda crazy to switch to decentralized assets

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by hendzen on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:32PM (#17139844)
Re: Robinhood fees. Who cares about the fees that the wholesalers pay -- It's about the end-user experience. And for that matter, you don't seem to understand the full picture on how routing/fees work with retail orders for US equities. Robinhood orders typically get routed to wholesalers like Virtu, Two Sigma or Citadel that actually execute the orders at the prevailing market price on public exchanges. Robinhood gets PAID for that, not the other way around.

Do you really expect the typical person to set a bunch of passive limit orders on GDAX until they get filled? What kind of user experience is that? I would be willing to wager that 95%+ of Coinbase users are just buying and selling directly on Coinbase (and paying the extremely high fees) and have no idea what GDAX is.

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by __blockcipher__ on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:04PM (#17150090)
>Do you really expect the typical person to set a bunch of passive limit orders on GDAX until they get filled? What kind of user experience is that? I would be willing to wager that 95%+ of Coinbase users are just buying and selling directly on Coinbase (and paying the extremely high fees) and have no idea what GDAX is.

Of course that's the case. I never said everyone does that. I said it's a no-brainer to do it.

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:27PM (#17140197)
> tokenization helps the users (stockholders)

Back when investors held paper stock certificates, including bearer securities, which de-centralised ownership recording, shares were frequently lost, stolen, damaged and fought over after someone's death, intestacy, bankruptcy et cetera. Returning to tokenized holding would heap costs currently well managed by the system onto end users. (One would also have the problem of irreversible transactions being incompatible with modern law and securities practices.) "Stocks but on blockchain" is a regression for everyone except the hucksters.

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by koolba on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:21PM (#17139387)
To finally put an end to flash trading by limiting the total transaction throughput to one trade every ten minutes.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by __blockcipher__ on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:30PM (#17139833)
Haha. I love me some subtle blocksize jokes.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by MichaelGG on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:27PM (#17139805)
SEC can "fix" HFT instantly by allowing more decimals. There's no good reason to only have 0.01/0.001 increments. Making it so granular forces speed over accurate pricing. Make it 8 decimals and the speed advantage goes away.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by hendzen on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:56PM (#17139992)
No, it just moves the race from getting the first order at the +0.01/-0.01 band placed to getting the first order priced .00000001 better than the top placed before a liquidity-taking order comes in.

There is no really easy way to "get rid of HFT", and it's unclear whether we actually want to do that. Equity trading is very cheap & efficient w/ tiny spreads on everything remotely liquid. Pretty much the only people who get hurt by HFT are big institutional investors (hedge funds, etc) that used to be able to move big blocks of stock without affecting the price as much as they now do. If anything - the pricing is better now. If you own a truckload of oranges and you hear that someone is going around frantically buying up all the oranges at every store, do you not feel like you should consider raising the price of your oranges?

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by MichaelGG on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:02PM (#17140416)
I'm unsure how it doesn't fix the speed advantage. Anyone can get in front by bidding a millionth cent more. You can keep doing that until the price starts mattering, right?

I'm not against HFT at all. But having such granular pricing doesn't do anyone favours. More decimals would reduce spreads as well as silencing HFT critics and maybe make trading a bit more accessible without as much high end systems. But the spread reduction is valuable alone.

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by shanev on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:45PM (#17139537)
In 5 years both sharding and Plasma would be implemented on Ethereum. NASDAQ would probably run its own Plasma chain or sidechain and wouldn’t be beholden to the main chain’s throughput.
Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by tomjakubowski on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:59PM (#17139634)
> NASDAQ would probably run its own Plasma chain

If they're running a blockchain on their own, doesn't that defeat the point?

> To eliminate _single points of failure, siloing and centralized control_.

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by Tesl on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:38PM (#17139483)
But they could implement that tomorrow if they really wanted to?

Was this a joke that's gone over my head? :)

Re:Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading pl... by Mtinie on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:39PM (#17139489)
It would be funny if it worked that way, but alas, it doesn’t.