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Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by AlexandrB on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:25PM (#17137904)
We're rapidly heading into a world where every form of non-fictional media has to be mediated by a trusted third party because we have no way to distinguish what's true from what's fabricated with our own senses. This is a complete reversal of the verifying power that images, audio, and video once provided to everybody regardless of income or education. Think about some of the potent imagery that came out of wars like WWII and Vietnam, for example.

We're not too far away from the manufacture of literal "fake news" out of whole cloth. I'm not sure this bodes well for the idea of an informed electorate.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by ballenf on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @04:40PM (#17138055)
We may later view the short period in which A/V recordings as authoritative over first-hand accounts was a brief "glitch" in the history of the world.

The ability to fake such things means that we have to return to trusting our fellow human and making wise choices about who can be trusted.

Fingerprints, DNA samples will remain of varying degrees more difficult to fake, but one must assume that those too will fall as paragons of unassailable guilt (or innocence, but usually guilt).

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by toss1 on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:55PM (#17139605)
DNA contamination is already turning out to be very widespread, we shed it everywhere, it lasts, and can get on victims' clothing, fingernails, etc.. Also contamination in labs.

Read recently about a case with apparently solid DNA evidence under victim's fingernails, supposed perp no real memory, but it turns out the police had him in custody at the time of the crime. He'd eaten in the same restaurant days earlier. I can't find the article quickly, but it was recent.

Some others: https://newrepublic.com/article/123177/how-dna-evidence-incr...

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/a-reaso...

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by sambull on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:49PM (#17139171)
Those should already have fallen. Gross human incompantance/perverse incentives to use science as a blackbox for prosecution
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by tonto on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:48PM (#17140329)
You really just don't like forensic science or what
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by on_and_off on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:22PM (#17140511)
https://www.wired.com/story/dna-transfer-framed-murder/

DNA is not the end all of an investigation

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by qop on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:35AM (#17141126)
If the people who prosecute you are the people who report the dna, whose to say they don't just say that it matched when it really didn't?

Fakable media needs to be decentralized, period.

Edit: not parent commenter, btw, just my personal two cents

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by tryAtHome on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:35PM (#17139463)
There are silver linings to the total fabrication of images and audio, whose veracity and presumed authenticity due to the threshold for forgery is perhaps only 100 years old, and soon to disappear.

One, people will be less swayed by emotionally charged imagery, and that's a good thing. That means less #FOMO and less rage at the perception that everyone is having fun but you. People can feel normal, just being normal again, because of the soon-to-be-wide-spread understanding that any and all photography, video or audio can be fabricated.

Two, media is manipulative regardless of who holds the keys to the castle, as most trusted information source. It's not a conflict of fake versus real. It's a conflict of one group of large personalities versus another set of polarizing characters, and external players fanning the flames. That one group can shout down another isn't great, because even if there is One True Narrative neither side presents it to us, and most of the smarter folks among us are already aware of this, and digest all information under such a context implicitly.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by rickycook on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:15AM (#17141276)
i’m not sure about the less FOMO bit. people already are widely aware the many fashion magazines photoshop their cover images, but that doesn’t stop a huge number of people feeling terrible about themselves for not looking like that
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by cko on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:23AM (#17143716)
I agree, I think the human response to this stuff is instinctive and visceral. I consider myself a highly skeptical and disciplined mind but once in a while I catch myself believing stuff that doesn’t have much rigor behind it. And it takes me a while to catch myself. By then I might have already told a few people some “facts.”

It’s quite a mental load to question every source of data and have one’s guard up. Unless our own wiring evolves I can’t see the general population changing our data processing habits.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by mustacheemperor on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:57PM (#17139220)
>every form of non-fictional media has to be mediated by a trusted third party

This sounds like the kind of "trust problem" I've heard will supposedly be solved by practical blockchain technology. I'm wondering this aloud, since I'm not sure how that could really be accomplished. As someone below suggested, some means of cryptographically signing "authentic" or ungenerated/unmodified video.

Come to think of it, have major scandals been invoked by photos that were proven or likely to be manipulated since the invention of that technology? Does the public place less stock in the authenticity of photos by default these days?

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by bigiain on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:05PM (#17139674)
So I'm showing my age here, but...

Back in the day - a fax wasn't considered a "signed legal document", but it _was_ considered "proof of existence of a signed legal document".

Perhaps the response to this is to not "trust" video or images as standalone legal "evidence", but to allow a person to testify "yes, that's an unmodified depiction of an event I witnessed", with that person then being held liable to legal penalties for perjury if that's disproved.

There's precedent (here in Australia) - traffic cameras put a hash of the image and detected infringement details into the file they use for enforcement action and as evidence if you elect to have it heard in court, at which time they need an "expert witness" from the manufacturer to state that the image cannot have been manipulated as "proved" by the hash (there was a hilarious case in Sydney a couple of decades back because back where a defence lawyer got smart enough advice to point out the fixed speed camera his client was accused by had a design flaw where the hash was calculated of the photograph _before_ overlaying the date/time/detected speed on it, so it was impossible to verify the hash since the annotations destroyed enough information... They had to let the alleged offender off, and then scrabbled to create a twisted legal interpretation to ensure all other drivers fine by the same model speed camera couldn't all dispute past fines...)

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by ridgeguy on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:36PM (#17140257)
That puts us back to relying on eyewitness testimony. Not progress, IMHO [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_testimony

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by SamReidHughes on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:41PM (#17140283)
Eyewitness testimony is a lot more reliable when they've got a video to back it up.
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by ridgeguy on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:08PM (#17140449)
How can we conclude this if we don't know whether the video is accurate or falsified?

Ordinary photo/video evidence can no longer be trusted as either support or impeachment of an eyewitness' report.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by SamReidHughes on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:07AM (#17141016)
Eyewitness testimony by honest witnesses is what's considered unreliable. Video corroboration is what makes it reliable.
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by TangoTrotFox on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:13AM (#17142063)
I take a third option. Viewing the world in terms of first principles. Evaluate events not in terms of what is said, but only by what you know to be undeniably and absolutely true and then those principles' logical connection to other events. To take a very controversial example, let's consider Assad gassing his people.

I know for a fact that there was an attack of some sort - this is not in dispute by any party. I also know that Assad had been steadily regaining complete control of his nation - again something that's not really in dispute. I also know that Assad and his forces are capable of highly effective conventional attacks with minimal international issue. And finally I know, and I know that he knows, that chemical weapons would likely spur international outrage and risk dragging outside players (such as the US) into his conflict, which could turn everything upside down. The conclusion I draw is controversial, but makes infinitely more sense than what my trusted third parties tell me I should believe.

And maybe most importantly, I also accept that I could be wrong. There may be evidence or information, that would qualify as first principles, that I'm not aware of. It's also possible that somebody acted in a completely irrational and self destructive way for no apparent benefit. And as new information comes to light, I'm happy to change my views. I find that people who rely on third parties are generally not all that well informed on what they're talking about as pundits tend to focus on pathos over logos. And I think this ignorance is what drives people to double down on their views as a sort of defensive mechanism - this is probably playing a major role in our antagonism towards each other on controversial topics.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by AlexandrB on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:47AM (#17143899)
> And finally I know, and I know that he knows, that chemical weapons would likely spur international outrage and risk dragging outside players (such as the US) into his conflict, which could turn everything upside down.

You're making the same mistake that a lot of economic analysis makes and assuming that Assad (and people, in general) will always act in their own best interest without bias or emotion clouding their judgement. This is the same reasoning that Stalin probably applied to his treaty with Hitler before WWII. Hitler invaded Russia anyways, even though bringing Russia into the war was a huge blunder for Germany.

People don't always make the right - or even rational - decision. Trying to infer the truth based on what a "rational actor" would do is utter nonsense.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by TangoTrotFox on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:48AM (#17144485)
People don't always make rational decisions? I'd agree with you, but the times they don't make up a minuscule fraction of all times. When we have incomplete information we're left to make probabilistic approximations about how likely each possibility is the real explanation for something.

Operation Barbarossa is great example - I really enjoy WW2 history! You seemingly think this was an arbitrary act of a mad man. In reality it was a rational and calculated decision. The Red Army was amassing on Germany's border and it was later revealed that Red Army generals had already been requesting permission to begin their attack, but Stalin was waiting for a more strategic opportunity. In particular he wanted England and Germany to go to war and for his army to march over the remains. By contrast England in the west was wanting the exact same thing with the USSR and Germany. America was also looking more and more like it might take a more direct role in the war.

Germany basically had two substantial powers on either side of it, waiting to pounce. It had even offered peace to England, who rejected the offer, in an effort to avoid fighting a war on both sides. And both sides were also massively ramping up their forces. It was during this era that millions went without under Stalin as he dedicated massive and unprecedented resources to a military buildup. And England, as mentioned, was also receiving increasing support from America. In other words, his enemies were getting stronger faster than he was. His invasion was what he saw as the best of many bad options.

When there is an explanation that follows logically and clearly for something, and another explanation that simply relies extensively on illogical events and turning 'bad guys' into caricatures, I tend to go with logic. Could I be wrong? Like I said, absolutely. And I'm fine with this because history shows time and again that logic tends to be far more accurate than a one-sided perspective on events.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by TangoTrotFox on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:58PM (#17147145)
As a sort of edit here, to clarify - I am not equating rational with 'good' decisions. But only that decisions are generally driven by a reason. These reasons can be good, bad, flawed, or flawless. But there is a reason that generally can be empathized with, which is not to say agreed with.
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by tryAtHome on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:35PM (#17139462)
There are silver linings to the total fabrication of images and audio, whose veracity and presumed authenticity due to the threshold for forgery is perhaps only 100 years old, and soon to disappear.

One, people will be less swayed by emotionally charged imagery, and that's a good thing. That means less #FOMO and less rage at the perception that everyone is having fun but you. People can feel normal, just being normal again, because the understanding that any and also photography, video or audio can be fabricated.

Two, media is manipulative regardless of who holds the keys to the castle, as most trusted information source. It's not a conflict of fake versus real. It's a conflict of one group of large personalities versus another set of polarizing characters, and external players fanning the flames. That one group can shout down another isn't great, because even if there is One True Narrative neither side presents it to us, and most of the smarter folks among us are already aware of this, and digest all information under such a context implicitly.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by bigiain on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:47PM (#17139548)
Optimistically - relying on "single source" stories is something we're already learning on other media to avoid. There's regular good advice shared about not reacting to tragedy reported on Twitter if there's not independent sources of confirmation. We're getting closer to the point of human existence where there are enough people with cameras in their pocket to be able to expect multiple images/video from different angles of any newsworthy event. Deepfake isn't (probably? yet?) capable of modifying multiple video streams from different angles in a consistent fashion...
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by namibj on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:55AM (#17141630)
The version used on the NSFW subreddit(s) is not capable of that. The jump is not far though, as it is 'just' a more perspective-considering application of mostly the same technology. IIRC the issue is mostly with the regular deepfake showing poor quality if the face is shown from the side, which makes the artifacts rather blunt. You still have to worry about this. There was a season of the TV series 24 (second half of season 2), which dealt with an audio recording almost causing WW3. The season ran winter 2002/3. Google already has the technology to synthesize voice at a quality that easily passes examination, provided the minimal artifacts can be hidden in (non-white) noise. Considering this is full synthesis, and that we already had real-time face morphing [0] in 2016 (with hardware capable of reaching NTSC quality available for under $1k in a laptop at that time), the point of faking multi-angle video using motion capture technology and similar, as well as humans for guiding the software/eliminating artifacts, is likely not far.

[0]: http://gvv.mpi-inf.mpg.de/projects/MZ/Papers/DemoF2F/page.ht...

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by sjg007 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:50AM (#17141410)
Good thing we have PGP
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by noobermin on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:59AM (#17141444)
I'm surprised few people are actually discussing this, digital signatures seem like the right way to go for footage like security recordings or recordings that can serve as evidence that must be trusted.

Discussion below[0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17136292

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by John_KZ on Thursday May 24, 2018 @08:40AM (#17143345)
This still depends on trust and tamper-proof devices. You don't need the keys if you can alter the input stream.
Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by noobermin on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:25PM (#17146246)
Indeed, but it ups the ante. It requires someone creating a spoof expend more work rather than just training a NN to fabricate a video.

I think everyone knows this, security just makes things harder, and that might be enough.

Re:The US military is funding an effort to catch deepfakes a... by SubiculumCode on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @09:30PM (#17140219)
the true application of blockchains?