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Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by rm999 on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:07AM (#17126407)
I know a few earlyish employees at Facebook, and they are easily the happiest people I've met at any company. In some respects this can be credited to joining the right company at the right time: they got in early at a company that makes insane amounts of money and has a huge influence on the world. But this seems to be the icing on the cake to them. Everyone I know at Facebook who got in before 2010 credits Mark Zuckerberg ("Zuck", ugh). They call him a friend and say he never wavers in his passion or mission. They seriously look up to the guy and won't work anywhere else, even though they have built up generational wealth.

Honestly I don't care much for Facebook's methods and I think they are a net negative on the world, but I still really look up to Mark Zuckerberg as a leader.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by ameister14 on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:19PM (#17127627)
A lot of people don't think much of him, and I completely disagree with his ultimate stated vision, but it's one hell of an accomplishment to take a company from $0-531 Billion in your 20's and early 30's, do it while retaining talent and growing and have people as committed now as they were 10 years ago. Doing that requires a very special person.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by typomatic on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:44PM (#17127878)
I agree that the things you said happened, but I believe that the success of the company is incidental to who ran it. There are millions and millions of factors involved in Facebook's success and to drop all the accolades at the feet of the CEO seems insane.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by rm999 on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @02:42PM (#17128369)
> I believe that the success of the company is incidental to who ran it

This is usually not true for successful companies, but it's especially not true in facebook's case. Mark Zuckerberg has kept incredibly strong control of facebook, holding more than 50% of voting control even as it's grown to a half trillion dollar company - so he definitely deserves credit for what his company has become.

Also, he has made some strong, unintuitive decisions along the way (no advertising in the first several years, real name policy, dropping out of college, moving to silicon valley, hiring experienced tech executives, buying a dead-simple photo filter app for 1 billion dollars) that can directly be attributed to facebook's success today. It's hard to remember today, but in the first ~5 years of Facebook it was very far from obvious that facebook would dominate the social space.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by enitihas on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @03:04PM (#17128528)
I think his biggest decision might have been to go mobile first. I used to have a Nokia S40 series phone and Facebook worked really well on that both from the default web browser and from Opera Mini. Add that to the Instagram and WhatsApp acquisitions and he seems to be making really good business decisions. I do disagree with the overall fb direction today but I don't doubt he is a very capable business man.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by gowld on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:07PM (#17139274)
Which of those decisions is unintuitive? They are the same choices most big companies of the past 30years have made.

> no advertising in the first several years,

Standard VC funded startup

> real name policy

This may be the one non-obvious choice.

> dropping out of college

Like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs

> moving to silicon valley

ahem, document.location == "ycombinator.com"

> hiring experienced tech executives

How is hiring experienced tech executives unintuitive for a tech company? Google hired Eric Schmidt. Microsoft hired Steve Ballmer.

> buying a dead-simple photo filter app for 1 billion dollars

Paying a fortune for apps with eyeballs was the m.o. of the first dotcom era, and hasn't subsided.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by reaperducer on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @03:55PM (#17128892)
> to drop all the accolades at the feet of the CEO seems insane.

Seems fair. The public drops all of Facebook's failures at Zuckerburg's feet, too. Nobody ever said, "Damn that third-tier middle manager in the reporting department who ordered the database change that made me unable to find my cousin's best friend's uncle's dog's page!"

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by gowld on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @07:03PM (#17139245)
Why did Facebook beat MySpace and Friendster?

Why does Facebook even exist? Zuckerberg fought off several cofounders. Do you think Facebook would be what is it if the Winklevoss brothers ran it?

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by johnchristopher on Sunday June 03, 2018 @05:10PM (#17222093)
So do I. I am most impressed with the fact he kept the train on rails than coming up with the idea.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by aphextron on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @02:11PM (#17128111)
>They call him a friend and say he never wavers in his passion or mission. They seriously look up to the guy and won't work anywhere else, even though they have built up generational wealth.

Of course they like the guy. He essentially wrote them a free winning lottery ticket. I'd like him too. Try asking literally anyone else on earth how they feel about "Zuck", though.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by dchuk on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @02:26PM (#17128222)
What's interesting though, is that these people actually know him. Anyone else on earth most likely doesn't know him, but has formed a negative opinion of him via his own actions and those of his company.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by staticautomatic on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @02:38PM (#17128323)
The same could be said for any cult leader.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by wolco on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @03:18PM (#17128621)
Rarely are you friends with your cult leader. Father figure, representive of some alien power or direct connection to God rarely makes a good platform for a friendship.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by staticautomatic on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @05:49PM (#17129702)
If you research cults I think you'll find that's not true. Cult leaders often become friends with their earliest and closest acolytes.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by thirduncle on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @12:01PM (#17126922)
They call him a friend and say he never wavers in his passion or mission.

But do they... agree with that "mission" -- or more specifically, what has become of it in 2018?

That's the question you should be asking them.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by sadamznintern on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @03:44PM (#17128816)
>I know a few earlyish employees at Facebook, and they are easily the happiest people I've met at any company.

Does anybody have any suggestions about how to become like this?

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by silverlake on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @03:51PM (#17128865)
become fabulously wealthy.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by sadamznintern on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:55PM (#17129346)
Fuck
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by 908087 on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:18AM (#17126506)
Did you watch his recent testimony?

If so, I'm not sure how you could possibly consider him someone worth looking up to as a leader.

If you take everything he said and every question he dodged during his testimony at face value, it would indicate that he knows next to nothing about his own company.

If you don't take it at face value, option two is that he's a liar.

Those aren't the kind of qualities I consider worth looking up to.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by cm2012 on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:22AM (#17126551)
He answered the questions the only way you can when lying to congress is illegal - only answer things you know 100% for sure are true, don't volunteer any more information than asked. Not to mention, the people asking the questions weren't seeking the truth for the most part, they were seeking soundbites and "gotchas" for political gain.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by 908087 on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:19PM (#17127626)
If you have to dodge questions and lie to avoid making your company look bad, it's probably a sign that you're doing something you shouldn't be doing.

This looks even worse coming from someone who runs a company that seeks to destroy the concept of privacy for the entire population (or, at least, the portion of the population that can't afford to buy the houses around their own and build 6 foot walls around 750 acre Hawaiian retreats for themselves like Zuckerberg has). The hypocrisy is incredible.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by Darmani on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:52PM (#17127956)
It's quite easy to make anyone look bad by questioning.

"Sir, do you know how fast you were driving. Were you aware that the speed limit is 55 mph? Do you know that hundreds of children die every year from drivers like yourself who value their own time over the lives of others?"

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by protonimitate on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:21AM (#17126546)
It's really easy to blame everything wrong with Facebook on Zuck. I can't fault him for doing his best to protect the company he built. I don't endorse or commend the shady business practices that happen over there, but I also can't fault him 100%. If you were put on the stand for a company you built, would you throw it under the bus for your principles? I don't know if I can say I would - especially in a high pressure situation like that. Let alone the amount of whispering in his ear from everyone his "team".
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by s73v3r_ on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:19PM (#17127631)
I think part of the issue is that his company, the one he's supposed to be leading and is fully responsible for, got to a point where he would be pressured to throw it under the bus for his principles. If he was a good leader, it shouldn't have gotten that far (unless, of course, what happened with Facebook was actually in line with his principles).
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by cryoshon on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:39PM (#17127830)
>I don't care much for Facebook's methods and I think they are a net negative on the world

>I still really look up to Mark Zuckerberg as a leader.

these statements are incompatible.

who do you think dictates the methods? who do you think decides the ends for which those methods are directed?

who do you think is the one who baldly avoided answering up and down over and over in front of a congressional panel?

hint: it's zuck.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by save_ferris on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:54PM (#17127965)
Yeah, I completely agree here.

How did we get to the point where we so easily separated leaders actions from their public image?

It's the logical equivalent of saying "I condemn what the Nazis did, but I respect Hitler's oratory ability to inspire a country", as if his abilities as a leader in no way influenced the Holocaust.

It's crazy to me how people logically isolate a leader's words and actions from the consequences of the institutions they lead in this case.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by aaron-lebo on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:27AM (#17126599)
Just interested, what's impressive about Zuck as a leader?

Money will make people do crazy things. I think he's shown time and time again in his handling of situations that he's been pretty ineffective and his primary strategy is to say "we're sorry we have to do better". It's lots of excuses, that's not good leadership material in my book.

There's also crazy stories like the time he gave a speech proclaiming "Carthago delenda est", casting Facebook as Rome and Google as Carthage. Then everyone went into lockdown over the weekend so they could dig through Google+ and copy whatever they could. According to the same book (Chaos Monkeys), Zuck's inner circle is basically a bunch of sycophants (aka Friend of Zuck). It also repeatedly refers to Facebook as a cult. Why do you think they had major failures like the most recent one? Sycophancy is not a working strategy.

Surely he's made some great choices (Instagram acquisition), but how can you begin to separate his actual ability with the power/wealth he can bestow on anyone, biasing their view of him? The guy could fail 1,000 times over at this point and still be a billionaire.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/business/facebo...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/16/facebook-...

The stuff that happens there is kind of comical. Would effective leaders really run an org like that?

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by dv_dt on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:41AM (#17126744)
> his primary strategy is to say "we're sorry we have to do better". It's lots of excuses, that's not good leadership material in my book.

Actually, to me, that is incredibly powerful. I can't really evaluate Zuckerberg's effectiveness, but you can't fix problems if you can't admit fault, and many in leadership positions never admit fault.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by aaron-lebo on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:47AM (#17126806)
It's only powerful if you actually change. Otherwise you're just using one of the classic tricks of manipulators.

"I'm sorry, it won't happen this time" is what abusive relationships are made of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4zd7X98eOs

Do people find this sincere? It seems fake/manipulative and too convenient. Facebook has been doing this for a decade+.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by ergomarky on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:55AM (#17126869)
It's still powerful if it impacts people. Manipulation, is still powerful if it works.

Which is where you might be confused, you can be incredibly insincere and abusive (seems common in business) but still a great leader (great in this context not meaning just), as they've shown they can a) get out of sticky situations b) continue making money and c) have a relatively happy team. So in this scenario what would actually back up your argument would be demonstrations of the apologies having zero impact, the team hating the apologies and thus being less productive, and/or a general loss of revenue.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by aaron-lebo on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @12:18PM (#17127072)
Very well said.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by dv_dt on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:09PM (#17127512)
Admitting fault and a need for change is also the only way to actually start a change that does happen. I agree though that you should also hold people to account for the follow through to real changes.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by rhizome on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @02:26PM (#17128217)
The change is the most important part. Talk is cheap.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by GuiA on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:44AM (#17126781)
It is true that many people do not readily apologize or admit to their mistakes, but California tech culture has managed to flip this around on its head by publishing deep, heartfelt apologies on corporate blogs for everything and anything, making it lose most of its weight. The ultimate goodwill hack.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by s73v3r_ on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:17PM (#17127602)
But if your default reaction is to just say, "Sorry" but not seem to mean it, that's not really powerful at all.
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by kaibee on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @01:29PM (#17127719)
> that's not really powerful at all.

I'd be more inclined to agree if it wasn't working so well for him.

Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by TAForObvReasons on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:53AM (#17126854)
> he's been pretty ineffective and his primary strategy is to say "we're sorry we have to do better". It's lots of excuses, that's not good leadership material in my book.

That is incredible leadership from a capitalistic perspective. Look at other business leaders like Tony Hayward of BP or John Stumpf of Wells Fargo. Getting away with atrocities under the banner of "We're sorry" is not easy. It takes years of practice and a highly orchestrated performance on Capitol Hill and other places.

[dead]
Re:Facebook management moves around but people don’t leave by dang on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @02:14PM (#17128127)
Maybe so, but could you please not post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? We're hoping for better than that here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html