Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by bgun on Monday May 21, 2018 @12:09PM
(#17119393)
Sometimes the most effective way to get the attention of influential people is by selling your willingness of wanting to learn from them at any cost, even if that means working for free or for very little money.
Nope. Giving terrible advice, couching it in "my unpopular opinion", then backpedaling through "maybe this could work for you, who knows" is lazy writing and lazier thinking.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by brandall10 on Monday May 21, 2018 @12:32PM
(#17119599)
Can you elaborate why this is terrible advice?
I have two real-world examples where this notion played out spectacularly:
- An ex-gf took an unpaid internship at the main museum here in San Diego with minimal job prospects upon graduating from USCD with a BA in history. 6 months later she took a full-time position at that museum, beating out someone with a MFA from Stanford simply because she was exposed to so many influential people in the industry who vouched for her. A year after that shee was promoted to managing their event planning dept.
- I transitioned from C# to Rails work by doing a pro-bono project for 4 months @ ~20hrs/week, the main condition was that they paid for a Sr. dev for mentorship. My mentor on that project continued to bring me work following that project, so much so that I quit my day job.
Value can be many things. Money is just one of them.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by CalRobert on Monday May 21, 2018 @02:49PM
(#17120738)
Oh hey, a great opportunity for a counterexample!
My wife got a Bachelor's from UCLA, then a Master's in Museum Studies from University College, London. She then worked for free (it was called "interning" - which is kind of crazy for someone with a master's) at the San Diego Air and Space Museum (some kinda weird folks there...), and the USS Midway. She gave up weekends and time she could have spent earning an income. It amounted to nothing, though she did get a neat volunteer dinner from the Air and Space Museum. Now she has a normal job in a normal office because she has to pay off the debts from school and can't afford to work for free.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by brandall10 on Monday May 21, 2018 @04:35PM
(#17121613)
Hey there fellow San Diegan! Your experience absolutely is valid, it's a rough industry - I consider it more like breaking into the entertainment industry than a normal job. If she wasn't exposed to so many high profile people (Jerry Sanders, Audrey Geisel, the artists from Art Alive that year) things likely would have gone a different way.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by CalRobert on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @02:20AM
(#17124060)
That's an apt comparison, and appropriately enough I'm sure there are plenty of people deeply regretting their time spent in unpaid internships in the entertainment industry.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by CalRobert on Monday May 21, 2018 @04:35PM
(#17121609)
Apparently, when your ex-husband whom you started dating at 17 is an abusive asshole who says you're an idiot, your interests are stupid, and you'll never amount to anything, you may, upon divorce, feel a strong sense of internal motivation to do all that stuff you always wanted to do, and make decisions not based purely on financial rationality.
Also, I totally understand the whole "why in the world would you pay for that" but if you work in tech you're in a fairly privileged position. The thing I desperately wanted to do most of my life happens to pay well. Somebody else desperately wanted to work in museums/heritage/archaeology and share knowledge. And museums do good work - one of the projects she worked on was repatriating artifacts stolen from Native American graves in the early 20th century. Since the thieves generally didn't take good notes, it could require a lot of time, effort, and knowledge to determine an artifact's provenience. That was more related to her undergrad studies - the graduate degree was more about a mix of preservation, conservation, etc.
I'm not sure it's worse than making some F2P game or Tinder for dogs. But it's definitely less profitable.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by murph-almighty on Monday May 21, 2018 @01:19PM
(#17120016)
Not OP.
1) It's an avenue for exploitation- if you did x for free for person A why won't you do y free for person B? What if this overtakes the time you need for your day job, which pays you and in turn enables you to work for free at your other gig?
2) It devalues the actual cost of labor. Why pay someone to build this when I can "pay someone with experience"? This complaint pops up a lot in graphic design work as well.
This isn't to say "don't do side projects" or "don't do open source"- with the latter, it's something you're doing for a community rather than one entity for a business intent. But it's reasonable to be cautious when someone says "we need a website that's like Uber for X for $0".
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by handbanana on Monday May 21, 2018 @01:29PM
(#17120097)
The scenario you give at the end is different. This isn't necessarily about finding advertised unpaid work - it's about getting your foot in the door and can involve offering to work highly discounted, or for free, in exchange for mentorship etc. Once you have the skills/connections from this initial step, you can advance your career. It's about taking calculated risks to advance your own interests - that otherwise probably won't get advanced as far/as quickly if you didn't take the risk(s). It's certainly not about working like a dog for someone trying to advance their own interests, while disregarding yours ("we need a website that's like Uber for X for $0")
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by brandall10 on Monday May 21, 2018 @02:35PM
(#17120618)
But the big thing you're missing is the context - to get experience and exposure. If you're in a situation where it's difficult to get either, that's how you're getting compensated.
Again, I must restate, value comes in many forms. Money is simply one. In these situations you truly aren't working for 'free'.
The main thing is to put limits and goals on such activities. My ex got into an industry where unpaid interns were a common thing and it kickstarted her career. She did have to walk away briefly before they offered her a (low) paid position, and they she had to walk away once more before she got a FT position. This wasn't going to happen any other way, and she absolutely flourished.
The client I worked for didn't pay for my time but they paid for the time of my mentor. I specifically had 4 months @ 20 hrs. per week, they paid him 5 hours per week - this was detailed in the contract. I had no experience in Rails at the time and I sure as heck didn't want to fail at my first time at bat. It was worth it to me to take something like that on vs. a low rate without that assistance.
But yes, if you're just getting started in software as a college student and taking an internship, of course you should be compensated as fairly as possible, because that in common in that context - if you don't, you are being exploited. Totally different thing.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by willio58 on Monday May 21, 2018 @02:21PM
(#17120498)
As a college student applying to payed internships currently, I couldn’t imagine applying for unpayed ones. I can barely support myself through school with the job I have, how am I supposed to support myself while not being payed anything for a couple months, let alone half a year? Take out loans, gambling on the chance that I get hired by the company after the internship? I get the value of an internship on a resume, but I value my work higher than $0/hour.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by handbanana on Monday May 21, 2018 @12:26PM
(#17119526)
I don't necessarily think this was great advice. But perhaps you'd care to explain why it is terrible advice? And why is it backpedaling to say "maybe"? There are probably a lot of people who could get this approach right - but others who, for lack of maturity/experience or other reasons identify a poor/inadequate mentor/influencer. It's hard to give advice that's foolproof and will work 100% of the time for everyone - so I'm not sure what you're really getting at
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by rossdavidh on Monday May 21, 2018 @02:00PM
(#17120338)
It seems to me that, if you have to give away your labor for free to get your foot in the door, you have picked a career that will not go well. Even once you get a job, you may have to keep schmoozing and have "sharp elbows" to keep others from taking it from you. If you have to give away your labor to get started, that is valuable information in and of itself, but not in the way the author intended, I think.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by willio58 on Monday May 21, 2018 @02:11PM
(#17120419)
It isn’t even a novel idea, unpayed internships still exist and they’re terrible. Certain industries have gotten rid of them, but it took a lot of fighting to do so. Companies should be able to pay for labor, it’s as simple as that. You don’t have to pay an intern top dollar either, just a living wage will do.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by alexpotato on Monday May 21, 2018 @01:39PM
(#17120176)
I would make a slightly different point:
The best way to earn is to find people who are willing to trade with you in a way that is fair for both of you.
For example, I've worked (as in full time paid) for companies where I was told "Do X and we will pay you $Y". Upon completion of X, there was no $Y. This is an example of unfair trading aka not keeping up their end of the deal.
I've also worked, for very little or no pay, and done even better work and the people/companies I worked for did exactly what they said they were going to do.
Everyone has a different value space. If you are young and your time is cheap and you have lots of energy, find someone who needs that and is willing to trade you (ideally explicitly) for that in return for whatever you desire. That could be money, status, knowledge, experience etc
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by andyonthewings on Monday May 21, 2018 @12:58PM
(#17119838)
I dont think the idea of doing free work in order to learn and acquire knowledge and skills is that unpopular or controversial.
At least I myself did that when I was in university. I got into open source community and started contributing to the Haxe programming language. I ported some libraries from another languages and contributed some unit tests and CI configs (Travis, AppVeyor, SauceLabs) to the Haxe repo. Since I become a frequent contributor, the core developers are much more willing to teach and answer my questions on not just Haxe but coding knowledge in general.
After I graduated I was employed by the Haxe Foundation and that was my first fulltime paid job.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by tabtab on Monday May 21, 2018 @02:01PM
(#17120355)
I had to turn to such when my specialty was replaced by The Web. I boned up on Web tech, but had no practical Web experience to put on my resume. The only way I found to get practical experience was to do projects for free, in exchange for references. It was survival for me.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by mamon on Monday May 21, 2018 @02:46PM
(#17120707)
Good advice, even if it's common knowledge, is usually unpopular, because people want quick fixes, advice that does not require any effort on their part.
Re:My Unpopular Career Advice for Today's College Graduates
by RickJWagner on Monday May 21, 2018 @05:56PM
(#17122199)
Huh. IMHO, the problem with 'learn, earn, return' is that the peak earning years are towards the age of retirement.
If by 'return' the author means in some partial way (not full time), then I can maybe see it. But if he means full-time giving back in your retirement, I don't think that fits my plans. I plan on some relaxation.
Nope. Giving terrible advice, couching it in "my unpopular opinion", then backpedaling through "maybe this could work for you, who knows" is lazy writing and lazier thinking.
I have two real-world examples where this notion played out spectacularly:
- An ex-gf took an unpaid internship at the main museum here in San Diego with minimal job prospects upon graduating from USCD with a BA in history. 6 months later she took a full-time position at that museum, beating out someone with a MFA from Stanford simply because she was exposed to so many influential people in the industry who vouched for her. A year after that shee was promoted to managing their event planning dept.
- I transitioned from C# to Rails work by doing a pro-bono project for 4 months @ ~20hrs/week, the main condition was that they paid for a Sr. dev for mentorship. My mentor on that project continued to bring me work following that project, so much so that I quit my day job.
Value can be many things. Money is just one of them.
My wife got a Bachelor's from UCLA, then a Master's in Museum Studies from University College, London. She then worked for free (it was called "interning" - which is kind of crazy for someone with a master's) at the San Diego Air and Space Museum (some kinda weird folks there...), and the USS Midway. She gave up weekends and time she could have spent earning an income. It amounted to nothing, though she did get a neat volunteer dinner from the Air and Space Museum. Now she has a normal job in a normal office because she has to pay off the debts from school and can't afford to work for free.
Anyway, your anecdote is valid, but so is mine.
Also, I totally understand the whole "why in the world would you pay for that" but if you work in tech you're in a fairly privileged position. The thing I desperately wanted to do most of my life happens to pay well. Somebody else desperately wanted to work in museums/heritage/archaeology and share knowledge. And museums do good work - one of the projects she worked on was repatriating artifacts stolen from Native American graves in the early 20th century. Since the thieves generally didn't take good notes, it could require a lot of time, effort, and knowledge to determine an artifact's provenience. That was more related to her undergrad studies - the graduate degree was more about a mix of preservation, conservation, etc.
I'm not sure it's worse than making some F2P game or Tinder for dogs. But it's definitely less profitable.
1) It's an avenue for exploitation- if you did x for free for person A why won't you do y free for person B? What if this overtakes the time you need for your day job, which pays you and in turn enables you to work for free at your other gig?
2) It devalues the actual cost of labor. Why pay someone to build this when I can "pay someone with experience"? This complaint pops up a lot in graphic design work as well.
This isn't to say "don't do side projects" or "don't do open source"- with the latter, it's something you're doing for a community rather than one entity for a business intent. But it's reasonable to be cautious when someone says "we need a website that's like Uber for X for $0".
Again, I must restate, value comes in many forms. Money is simply one. In these situations you truly aren't working for 'free'.
The main thing is to put limits and goals on such activities. My ex got into an industry where unpaid interns were a common thing and it kickstarted her career. She did have to walk away briefly before they offered her a (low) paid position, and they she had to walk away once more before she got a FT position. This wasn't going to happen any other way, and she absolutely flourished.
The client I worked for didn't pay for my time but they paid for the time of my mentor. I specifically had 4 months @ 20 hrs. per week, they paid him 5 hours per week - this was detailed in the contract. I had no experience in Rails at the time and I sure as heck didn't want to fail at my first time at bat. It was worth it to me to take something like that on vs. a low rate without that assistance.
But yes, if you're just getting started in software as a college student and taking an internship, of course you should be compensated as fairly as possible, because that in common in that context - if you don't, you are being exploited. Totally different thing.
The best way to earn is to find people who are willing to trade with you in a way that is fair for both of you.
For example, I've worked (as in full time paid) for companies where I was told "Do X and we will pay you $Y". Upon completion of X, there was no $Y. This is an example of unfair trading aka not keeping up their end of the deal.
I've also worked, for very little or no pay, and done even better work and the people/companies I worked for did exactly what they said they were going to do.
Everyone has a different value space. If you are young and your time is cheap and you have lots of energy, find someone who needs that and is willing to trade you (ideally explicitly) for that in return for whatever you desire. That could be money, status, knowledge, experience etc
At least I myself did that when I was in university. I got into open source community and started contributing to the Haxe programming language. I ported some libraries from another languages and contributed some unit tests and CI configs (Travis, AppVeyor, SauceLabs) to the Haxe repo. Since I become a frequent contributor, the core developers are much more willing to teach and answer my questions on not just Haxe but coding knowledge in general.
After I graduated I was employed by the Haxe Foundation and that was my first fulltime paid job.
If by 'return' the author means in some partial way (not full time), then I can maybe see it. But if he means full-time giving back in your retirement, I don't think that fits my plans. I plan on some relaxation.