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Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by jerrysievert on Sunday May 13, 2018 @08:49PM (#17061911)
are you sure that the cost of development is the real issue?

the last numbers I saw, 2015, showed marketing budgets for medicine to be often times twice what was being spent on R&D in the US. currently, only four countries allow this time of marketing: New Zealand, Brazil, Hong Kong, and United States.

it sounds like the US isn't necessarily subsidizing drug R&D, and instead is subsidizing marketing.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday May 13, 2018 @09:36PM (#17062072)
> the last numbers I saw, 2015, showed marketing budgets for medicine to be often times twice what was being spent on R&D in the US.

The marketing expense isn't necessarily avoidable.

Suppose it costs $50M to research a drug and patients will pay $1000 for a course of treatment. If you do no marketing then you get forty thousand customers and can't recover your R&D. If you spend $100M on marketing then you get two hundred thousand customers and more than recover both your R&D and your marketing expense.

Spending more on marketing can allow them to do R&D they otherwise couldn't by providing more customers to spread the R&D costs over.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by peterashford on Sunday May 13, 2018 @10:51PM (#17062333)
...except, at least in NZ where they do some of that marketing, the drugs are purchased via the state body Pharmac, which will not pay the inflated prices that the drug companies charge in the US.
Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by disordinary on Sunday May 13, 2018 @11:10PM (#17062397)
The reason for the advertising in NZ is that Pharmac will often fully fund generics, if you want to buy the brand name drug you have to pay extra on top. For instance, I just got a new prescription for inhalers, the pharmacy told me if I wanted ventolin it would be $5 but the generic was fully subsidised.
Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by peterashford on Sunday May 13, 2018 @11:23PM (#17062445)
sure, my point (which I probably was not very clear about) was more that the cost of marketing in NZ still isn't going to ratchet up profitability to the level of the US with their higher prices
Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by disordinary on Sunday May 13, 2018 @11:12PM (#17062407)
Surely though the best marketing is the effectiveness of the product, if it's a good product then doctors will prescribe it.

I don't know if it's true or not, but looking at US movies/tv shows it seems like everyones taking medication which I doubt they actually need. Here I don't know very many people who actively take regular medication, I know that people who move here complain at how doctors are stingy with prescriptions, yet life expectancy is longer than the US.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by refurb on Monday May 14, 2018 @12:18AM (#17062646)
Surely though the best marketing is the effectiveness of the product, if it's a good product then doctors will prescribe it.

That's true for very few physicians. The ones that are leaders in their field and do research know the ins and outs of new drugs, but your average doctor knows very little.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by disordinary on Monday May 14, 2018 @12:34AM (#17062719)
But, they all have access to knowledge bases and information and guidelines provided by the government.
Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by refurb on Monday May 14, 2018 @08:58AM (#17065043)
That is true, but setting aside time to do research is a much bigger hurdle than taking 10-15 min to listen to someone give you the highlights.

And in case anyone was wondering, doctors are very skeptical of drug reps and always verify anything they say before believing it. But it gives them a starting point.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by stinkbug on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @08:29AM (#17073427)
"always verify". Well that's obviously not a true statement but (not singling you out) I wonder why there is such a compulsion to defend the honor, as it were, of medical doctors.

It's not exactly the same as pharma, but in the medical device field salespeople are commonly in operating theatres. Clearly the surgeons doing this do not have time to "verify" what they are being told. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/why-i...

Americans would do well to stop idolizing doctors and realize that huge numbers of them are lazy, incompetent shills who routinely do a lot of preventable damage.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by AnthonyMouse on Monday May 14, 2018 @02:11AM (#17063111)
> Surely though the best marketing is the effectiveness of the product, if it's a good product then doctors will prescribe it.

Let's take this from the other side. Suppose we prohibit the marketing.

Now you have to amortize $50M in R&D over 40,000 patients instead of 200,000. So a course of treatment can't cost $1000, it has to be more than that.

Cutting out the marketing expense makes the price per patient go up.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by disordinary on Monday May 14, 2018 @02:25AM (#17063173)
But then those 160,000 other patients are either getting medication that they don't need or are getting medication which is inferior to something else which they should have gotten but has inferior advertising. I'd rather pay more and either only use the medication when I need it, or get the most effective medication.

One of the reasons why the US spends so much more than the rest of the world is because of the share amount of prescription drugs that people have. Here it's extremely hard to convince a Dr that anything other than paracetamol and rest is required for most ailments, yet life expectancy is higher than in the US.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by AnthonyMouse on Monday May 14, 2018 @02:49AM (#17063292)
> But then those 160,000 other patients are either getting medication that they don't need or are getting medication which is inferior to something else which they should have gotten but has inferior advertising.

Yes, if the advertising is total bullocks that is what happens. But getting rid of the advertising still doesn't make the price of the drug go down for the people who actually need it.

And it's at least theoretically possible for the advertising to help patients who otherwise wouldn't have known about the drug, e.g. because they asked a doctor about it years ago and there was no treatment then even though there is one now.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by stinkbug on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @08:18AM (#17073364)
Yes of course the advertisements are total bollocks. That is the claim. You are making these very strident back-of-the-envelope "economics" arguments without realizing that the economic ideal for the health care industry is to provide therapies that make people sicker, thereby ensuring their return for more therapies.
Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by stinkbug on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @08:13AM (#17073344)
Why on Earth would this get down voted?
Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by snowwrestler on Sunday May 13, 2018 @11:10PM (#17062392)
Are you sure that the "R&D" numbers you saw represent all the costs of developing a new drug and bringing it to market?
Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by aaavl2821 on Sunday May 13, 2018 @09:26PM (#17062031)
it costs aver $2.7B to get a drug approved based on the most accepted estimates. biggest cost is cost of failure. r&d is hard, highly regulated and expensive
Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by jerrysievert on Sunday May 13, 2018 @09:29PM (#17062043)
I'm not arguing that it isn't expensive, but when, for instance Johnson & Johnson spends $8.2B/yr on R&D, and spends $17.5B that same year on marketing those same drugs, it's hard to argue that the cost of R&D is the major issue here.

edited to add: especially when you look at the US R&D tax credit, available under section 41 of the tax code.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by maxerickson on Sunday May 13, 2018 @11:44PM (#17062511)
You're counting ads for baby shampoo and band aids as drug marketing.

I'm sure Johnson & Johnson does spend an awful lot on marketing drugs, but boy do the details hidden in SGA sure get hand waved away.

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by aaavl2821 on Monday May 14, 2018 @01:20AM (#17062906)
as another commenter said, that marketing spend also includes JNJs massive consumer products business and med device business

Also, pharma increasingly buys new products through acquisitions rather than develop them in house these days. So you have to look at the balance sheet, not just the p&l. Note that JNJ spent $30B buying actelion last year among other smaller acquisitions

Re:The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the B... by refurb on Monday May 14, 2018 @12:17AM (#17062639)
First off spending more on marketing than R&D is bullshit. That's only true if you add up S&GA which encompasses a lot more than just marketing.

Second, marketing is costly since a lot of it is done in person. Hiring thousands of sales reps doesn't come cheap. It's not due to DTC commercials since only a small number of products actually have those.

Finally, you don't market something unless you bring in more money than you spend. So marketing pays for itself.