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Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by kneel on Thursday May 03, 2018 @01:59PM (#16988191)
Because he's Elon Musk and he doesn't care about investor returns, he wants to build rockets, cars, tunnels, and explore space.

No matter what he does he'll more than likely be fine on the money side.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by JumpCrisscross on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:01PM (#16988217)
> he's Elon Musk and he doesn't care about investor returns

Then he shouldn't be the CEO of a public company which continues to sell stock and debt to investors on the promise of a return.

Also, Elon Musk very much does care about returns. He has a great track record in that department. He's just learned it's not something that's healthy to focus on in the short-term. Unfortunately, running out of cash forces the compression of time horizons. The latter is what investors are rightfully worried about.

[dead]
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by xkjkls on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:22PM (#16988396)
The west coast bias in Hacker News is always shocking. The capital markets exist for a reason, and the people he's mocking on this conference call are the ones that he's going to need to be begging for billions if things don't deliver in Q3 or Q4.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by peoplewindow on Thursday May 03, 2018 @05:55PM (#16990350)
I realise we're not meant to meta-discuss here, but that post you're replying to was flagged and dead, and I vouched for it.

For what it's worth, I agree that the post was ridiculous - Musk's behaviour is dumb and with every week that goes by I expect reality to catch up with him more and more. But I don't think the HN community should be flagging and killing posts for being naive and un-business-like. I struggle to identify what rule was broken there, and (supposedly) west coast "money is free" bias is not a good reason to suppress someone's post from being visible.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by kneel on Thursday May 03, 2018 @04:38PM (#16989713)
If the price drops and someone else thinks its undervalued they'll buy it. Elon doesn't have to brown nose to Wall St. bigwigs for that to happen.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by xkjkls on Thursday May 03, 2018 @07:17PM (#16990871)
I don't think "answering basic questions about the financial health of your company" really should be considered "brown nosing", but to each their own.

And it's not that simple that he can just raise debt or equity if Tesla's stock starts tanking. There aren't billions of dollars out there to be invested or loaned to money losing companies whose stock price is tanking. If come Q4 Tesla is having to raise money at a lower valuation, it becomes even more difficult to see the path to success.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by kneel on Thursday May 03, 2018 @07:30PM (#16990940)
>I don't think "answering basic questions about the financial health of your company" really should be considered "brown nosing", but to each their own.

Tesla has been thoroughly analyzed every which way, moreso than other companies. Really there is no end to the amount of info that Wall St wants, everyone is trying to make a buck and wall st senses the hype.

>There aren't billions of dollars out there to be invested or loaned to money losing companies whose stock price is tanking.

Tesla is public. Yes there is. Just depends on whether you can stomach the risk.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by xkjkls on Thursday May 03, 2018 @08:38PM (#16991271)
Tesla’s reporting leaves a lot to be desired.

Why wouldn’t Musk release a detailed plan of what is going to materially change in their production goals and capital expenditures over the next sixth months in order to finance their debt? Explain the process for how the make their projections and pronouncements? Explain why it is prudent to invest in multiple new models and production lines when his company is burning through $4 billion a year and can’t meet current production targets? Why doesn’t he explain how many of the 500,000 Model 3 deposits remain, given that at current production rates that will take almost a decade to meet? Why doesn’t he provide monthly sales figures like every other automaker?

> Tesla is public. Yes there is. Just depends on whether you can stomach the risk.

You understand that greater risk necessitate the possibility of greater return, right? What interest rate is it going to have to be paying on debt it raises? TSLA bonds are already at 8% interest, in junk bond territory.

If financials deteriorate further is he paying 10%? 12%?

In that situation how much of Tesla’s revenue is just going to be eaten up paying interest on the $10 billion in debt it currently has, plus an additional capital raise? That makes the cash flow issues even worse.

If Tesla raises equity, how much of a hair cut does the enterprise value take? With the amount of debt it currently has, it doesn’t take much before you start thinking insolvency.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by kneel on Thursday May 03, 2018 @10:49PM (#16991863)
This kind of talk is exactly why Elon pulled the plug on the wall st questions.

Society is PLAGUED with people who can't see any subject outside the lens of money. It's all people think about, it's disgusting.

Tesla's CEO is an engineer first and foremost. He doesn't give a s* if a worthless day trader doesn't know how to position. If the company dips into unforeseen debt while ramping up production, whoops.

They're pushing cars that will contribute to a sustainable future, that's what important here.

Tesla will still be fine in the long run. Tesla cars are still high in demand. You still have to wait weeks/months to receive one.

Sorry to all the vampires who don't know how to make a quick buck.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by xkjkls on Thursday May 03, 2018 @11:22PM (#16991983)
> Society is PLAGUED with people who can't see any subject outside the lens of money. It's all people think about, it's disgusting.

I'm sorry, but when trying to value an investment, or determining whether I should make a loan, I think the lens of money is important. There's a reason people form corporations rather than charities. Corporations are able to fund themselves sustain driving new things year over year. Charities finish when the money runs out.

What is Musk trying to build if it isn't a sustainable corporation?

> Tesla's CEO is an engineer first and foremost. He doesn't give a s* if a worthless day trader doesn't know how to position. If the company dips into unforeseen debt while ramping up production, whoops.

This sort of flippant comment is naive. You don't think the employees whose stock is vesting in the company care about how it is going to be valued or fund itself in the future? If I'm a talented engineer, why should I work for Tesla if the stock the grant me could be worthless in 6 months? Or what about those on the production lines, worrying about whether their factory might close down?

If you care so much about the company's ambition, you should care about their financial situation. Without it, they aren't going to be able to do any real research and development, hire the best talent, or do any of the basic functions necessary to make electric cars in the future.

> They're pushing cars that will contribute to a sustainable future, that's what important here.

If you care about that, you should care about the company actually having a financial plan to achieve those goals.

> Tesla will still be fine in the long run.

Why? Without answering the financial questions I described above, there isn't any way to predict that accurately.

> Tesla cars are still high in demand. You still have to wait weeks/months to receive one.

That's less of an issue with demand than an issue of supply. Tesla is struggling to put out 4000 cars a week, and there's a Ford F-150 sold every minute in the United States.

> Sorry to all the vampires who don't know how to make a quick buck.

I'm sorry you believe that those who care about Tesla's financial situation are just trying "to make a quick buck". To build the future, you first have to fund it.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by kneel on Friday May 04, 2018 @01:33AM (#16992416)
I can tell you have your money spectacles on.

Tesla is doing fine. If you don't think the stock is worth it, don't buy it. There are plenty of other companies out there that need funding.

At some point you have to stop worrying about the monthly cash flow and believe in the product, although if you view everything through the lens of money I doubt that's possible.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by dsfyu404ed on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:34PM (#16988531)
It shoudn't shock you. It should be expected based on the demographics of the people who read HN.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by xkjkls on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:48PM (#16988685)
Goldman Sachs has more developers than Facebook. It's not like Wall Street isn't filled with software people.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by sotojuan on Thursday May 03, 2018 @03:07PM (#16988862)
Those people don't go on HN. This is a forum mostly comprised of college students, web developers with <5 years experience, Silicon Valley startup/tech company developers, and a few experts that have stuck around.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by xkjkls on Thursday May 03, 2018 @07:20PM (#16990881)
Hacker News has been a repository of software/tech news long enough that I would bet the audience is more diverse than you think.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by praneshp on Thursday May 03, 2018 @03:30PM (#16989071)
Whenever I see a ridiculous reaction on HN (like on the Signal/AWS article a few days ago), I just wait and watch how the same folks bend over backwards to defend Musk.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by kalms on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:41PM (#16988606)
Maybe he knows something you don’t.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by propman on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:15PM (#16988323)
As an investor, I do...they get 4 chances a year to ask questions. Considering Elon lies with every 3rd breath he takes, wanting concrete factual numbers not sky high goals let's me know whether to get out or not. I love Elon's vision, but I think he made a downright idiotic nepotism filled move buying solar city when Tesla was already burdened with so much debt. He had the same attitude then, ignoring and dismissing all dissent and now Tesla is just straddled with debt.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by pwinnski on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:30PM (#16988476)
Elon Musk cares what Wall St thinks when they supply the billion-per-quarter Tesla burns through. He just doesn't want to answer the questions that come with the money.

Tesla may survive, as there seems to be no end of people bad at math, but a company doesn't burn through a billion per quarter for too long before "fine" is no longer the correct word.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by mcguire on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:38PM (#16988568)
According to Investopedia, Musk is worth $20B. As a first-order estimate, at last year's spend rate, he could fund Tesla for 10 years. But, those leaches are why he's worth $20B and the results of this call probably lopped a goodly chunk out of that $20B.

Tesla may not be fine. One ought not to go out of one's way to bite the hand that feeds one.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by danso on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:10PM (#16988288)
Wall Street's money pays Tesla's bills.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by kpil on Thursday May 03, 2018 @03:28PM (#16989044)
Your pension fund, rather...
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by kneel on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:42PM (#16988610)
Tesla is a public company.

Wall Street acts as a leaky pipe funneling money between investors and Tesla.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by danso on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:44PM (#16988632)
Wall Street sounds pretty terrible. So why isn't Tesla using a non-leaky money pipe?
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by dragonwriter on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:49PM (#16988691)
> So why isn't Tesla using a non-leaky money pipe?

If such a thing existed that would bring in the amount of money to Tesla that it has needed, it would.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by danso on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:54PM (#16988744)
If it seems Musk/Tesla have conceded to working with Wall Street in order to achieve its long term goals, then isn't it reasonable to assume Musk/Tesla does care about what Wall Street thinks?
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by IncRnd on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:19PM (#16988354)
Tesla wouldn't have grown if it weren't for Wall Street and investors.

There are elderly people with their futures invested, pension funds that will pay people's bills, etc. Tesla really should answer the questions of its owners.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by s2g on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:19PM (#16988360)
Then he should be fired because he doesn't care about his job.

I am so sick of the cult of Elon. There is no defending his behaviour here.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by bdamm on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:34PM (#16988523)
You've been downvoted but I don't know why. It's clearly true. He wants the power that comes with CEO, but not the levelheadedness to run what is now a large company making large promises.

What he's done is remarkable. But he should step down, assign himself a founder/chief scientist title, and move forward with "fixing" his company. No fear of ejection; I suspect he's a major shareholder.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by danso on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:03PM (#16988230)
Was he not CEO when Tesla went public in 2010?
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by pbreit on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:05PM (#16988253)
Guy has been instrumental in a couple hundred billion $$ in market value and you’re suggesting he doesn’t care about investor returns? Wow.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by jacquesm on Thursday May 03, 2018 @03:02PM (#16988820)
I'm not sure I'm following you. Creating market value and returning money to the investors as an ROI are not the same things. An earnings call is an opportunity to tell shareholders when - and if - they can expect some of their money back by giving them a more complete picture about how the company is doing. It is part of the role of a CEO in a publicly traded company to continue to inspire investor confidence. Value creation is the easy part, value capture the hard part and without that second bit Tesla's stock will implode. So he will have to talk to those investors to address their worries or the stock value will drop rapidly.

A crazy high valuation is no guarantee that a company can not go bust at some point, though in Tesla's case if they run out of money all that will likely happen is that their next round will be one at a lower valuation and with a group of investors that cares less about the short term.

Elon made the decision to play on Wall Street, that decision comes with some responsibilities and it is downright strange to see him literally bite the hand that feeds him. Without the cash he picked up through the IPO Tesla would be in a completely different position. He's made a couple of boneheaded moves (such as rolling Solar City in with Tesla), which have so far been accepted because of the halo and the promises. But there is a limit to how far that will stretch and I'm confused why he would stretch that on purpose if he has other alternatives (such as simply answering the questions). If he doesn't have any answers, which is one way to interpret his refusal, then Tesla is already in trouble.

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by txsh on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:15PM (#16988320)
He doesn’t want to do those things. He wants people to give him billions of dollars on the promise to do those things. Musk survives on putting in a minimal ammount of effort and having a great marketing team. The guy is a fraud.
Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by dang on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:56PM (#16988766)
Please don't do personal attacks here. It damages the community, regardless of what you think about Musk.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Tesla Plunges After a Conference Call by ltdanimal on Thursday May 03, 2018 @02:30PM (#16988480)
Ha. Pretty weak attach. The dude literally sleeps at work at times, and his companies have produced things that have never been done before. Stuff that you can't really do as a weekend warrior, like rockets and the fastest/longest range EVs that people wait in line to buy