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Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by ewjordan on Thursday September 16, 2010 @01:39PM (#1698486)
Here's one I've always liked, along the same lines, that tends to make even the most committed utilitarians pause:

You need to build a driveway up to your new house, and there are two possible routes, each one with a single maple tree in the way. One of the trees is very old, but quite healthy, standing at least 50 feet high. The other was just planted a few months ago, so is still quite small.

You're not the one that's going to cut the trees down, and the cost to do so will be the same in both cases (let's say that the higher cost to cut down the bigger tree is offset by the fact that the person cutting it down wants the wood for himself) - which tree do you cut down, and why?

Now, this doesn't seem like a moral issue. Almost everyone would cut down the smaller tree, for several reasons: it would take less time to grow a new one of the same size, we wouldn't be destroying as much previous "work", etc. Very logical, can't really argue with it.

But I lied. When I said "maple tree", what I really meant was "human", and when I said "you need to build a path to your house," what I really meant was "we're all in a flimsy lifeboat, there's a nasty shark circling, and it wants it some tasty human gubbins[1], so we either need to toss overboard the 50 year old award winning medical research doctor with a loving family of six waiting for him at home, or a newborn baby. Or else we all die!"

[Edit: As I pointed out in response to some of the comments, I probably should have made the doctor younger, to avoid questions about whether he's already used up most of his potential. I'd encourage you to think about what age he'd need to be to change your decision...]

Anyone here actually willing to stand up and say they'd toss the baby? Because from a pure utilitarian point of view, it's the logical thing to do - a newborn baby is a roll of the dice, likely to turn out as a completely average adult, with zero expected value above and beyond any other newborn baby that the same couple has, so they might as well just make another one. OTOH the professor has proven himself to be near the top of the usefulness curve, and the expected value of his remaining years is likely far greater than that of the newborn, even after we factor in the mother's grief over losing her baby.

It's a rare person that would actually make the choice to toss the baby - I certainly don't think I could, but I can't really pin down my logic to anything more compelling (in a rational sense) than "But it's a baby, for God's sake, it just feels so wrong!"

[1]: A strained extension of the term "gubbins" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gubbins) outside its usual meaning? Perhaps. But screw it, "gubbins" just sound like they would be so damned tasty, I stand firmly behind my use of the word.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by potatolicious on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:16PM (#1698610)
Key difference: sentience.

We keep the tree around because of its aesthetic or productive value to us - i.e. the old maple tree is preferable (to us) over the younger. We are inclined, in this case, to preserve the "work" we've already done to raise the tree up to this point. We do not perceive the tree as conscious nor sentient.

The human, however, is, at least in our books. We care about the fact that the child has a lifetime of experiences that it has yet to experience - and we value said experiences, and most of us I think would agree that every human is reasonably entitled to experiencing the highs and lows of life.

I'm not sure if it's valid to harp on people for having different logic and/or morals when it comes to dealing with sentient subjects as opposed to not. It seems to me entirely logically consistent to treat the two differently.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by CWuestefeld on Thursday September 16, 2010 @03:09PM (#1698775)
Sentience is certainly a difference between trees and humans, and probably a crucial difference.

However, some studies show that, depending on your definition of sentience, a baby might not fit into the category. There are many things (from memory: seeing moral consequences; some kinds of what if processes; understanding analogies) that aren't available to a person until 5-6 years old. Even trivial concepts such as the idea that an object still exists even when it's out of sight are not in the toolbox of a baby.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by tome on Thursday September 16, 2010 @03:16PM (#1698796)
The issue is of sentience in humans and non-sentience in trees -- not of developed sentience in adults and yet-to-be-developed sentience in babies.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by TheAmazingIdiot on Thursday September 16, 2010 @04:42PM (#1699082)
I wouldn't argue that if I were you. Who says trees aren't sentient? They may be made of fibers of cellulose, but plants and trees both respond to stimulus. Perhaps they think "slower" and of a different way.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by potatolicious on Thursday September 16, 2010 @05:05PM (#1699138)
The general consensus is that trees aren't sentient. They may very well be - but that's beyond the scope of this particular argument.

The original assertion is that people are being logically inconsistent by wanting to sacrifice the young tree, yet reluctant to sacrifice the young child. Based on the premise of tree non-sentience, it is entirely logically consistent that the two cases be decided differently.

The problem with tree sentience in general is that we have yet to define "think" in the context you are using it.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by calloc on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:17PM (#1698615)
Since you are asking for people to stand up, yes I will toss the baby overboard. I have no qualms about it in any way shape or form.

The baby has no value, it won't be able to help with our decision making process to get back to shore, it won't be able to solve problems we may find along the way, if we get stranded somewhere it won't be able to build shelter or find food. At that point the baby is nothing but dead weight that requires a constant amount of resources without any returns.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by lookACamel on Thursday September 16, 2010 @09:46PM (#1699747)
You could always sacrifice yourself (you have to be in the boat to throw someone overboard). So baby vs doctor is actually a false dilemma.

Also, I'd like to point out that if you make your opinion known that you plan to throw the baby overboard, everyone else is probably going to want to throw you overboard anyway.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by calloc on Friday September 17, 2010 @11:08AM (#1701379)
Sorry, my self preservation is rather strong. Thus I will not sacrifice myself.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by stonemetal on Thursday September 16, 2010 @01:51PM (#1698520)
But the utility functions are different. baby tree vs adult tree, old tree is better looking(provides more shade more useful right now) old crusty scientist guy vs baby, baby is cuter. If the shark eats the baby it will still be hungry(or get hungry again sooner) old crusty scientist guy is a much larger meal. Also an older scientist might be past his prime and have lower expected utility for the rest of his career while still expecting high pay.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by ewjordan on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:36PM (#1698687)
* If the shark eats the baby it will still be hungry(or get hungry again sooner) old crusty scientist guy is a much larger meal.*

We'll assume for the purposes of this thought experiment that the shark just wants a nibble - he'll be satisfied for sure with either one.

Also an older scientist might be past his prime and have lower expected utility for the rest of his career while still expecting high pay.

Yes, I realized this after it was too late to edit (well, I still could edit, but people have already replied, so it wouldn't be fair) - I probably should have made the doctor younger.

But in any case, it brings up the question: how young is "young enough" to prefer throwing a baby overboard to throwing a highly promising child/teenager/adult? Is there a "young enough" age for you, or would you always toss the older person, no matter how likely they were to be exceptional for the rest of their life?

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by tome on Thursday September 16, 2010 @03:18PM (#1698800)
We'll assume for the purposes of this thought experiment that the shark just wants a nibble - he'll be satisfied for sure with either one.

Meh. Then cut off your arm and give it to him. The problem with these philosophical experiments is controlling external variables. It just can't be done.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by Retric on Thursday September 16, 2010 @03:22PM (#1698820)
I think peoples gut reactions is somewhat based on “Number of lost potential decedents in 50-200 years based on primitive life expectancy.” At which point a 15 year old has greater value than both a 50 year old and a baby. This also explains why you get women and children then men then elderly.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by aristus on Thursday September 16, 2010 @03:48PM (#1698906)
The doctor is capable of choosing to sacrifice himself (cough as are you). The baby is not. I don't know whether that argument is outside of the utilitarian sandbox.

Does utilitarianism demand total knowledge? Can't you posit a baby exception wired into your brain (by evolution, $deity, whatever), obey it, and still be an orthodox utilitarian?

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by mustpax on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:21PM (#1698634)
A tree, left undisturbed, will go on to live for hundreds of years. So, a tree being relatively elderly does not reduce its remaining life. The medical researcher, on the other hand, has gone through approximately 2/3 of his life. Thinking in terms of person-years saved, it might make sense to save the baby instead. Of course, this is ignoring the aggregate benefit to society the researcher might provide over his remaining years. So it's only utilitarian on an individual level instead of an aggregate level, but it's a utilitarian justification nevertheless.

But then this could just be me trying to retrospectively justify my inclination to save the baby.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by naner on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:46PM (#1698708)
This is an odd analogue. Trees aren't very comparable to humans. Why not go with dogs or at least some kind of animal we have empathy towards?
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by VladRussian on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:46PM (#1698712)
the moral line isn't between tossing baby or doctor out. No.

The moral line is between whether you're able to kill a person ("toss out to save somebody else" - our human killer brain is good with coming out with "good/valid" reasons to kill) or not. If you're able to kill, then it is just a small technical detail whom to kill and why.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by Retric on Thursday September 16, 2010 @03:25PM (#1698835)
I think that vast majority of people would kill under some circumstances. EX: Conscripted army’s have worked fairly well throughout history.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by bryanlarsen on Thursday September 16, 2010 @04:28PM (#1699043)
Actually, I don't think that's true. Studies after world war 2 showed that only 15-25% of soldiers were "effective" and actually fired at the enemy. Modern training mechanisms have increased this ratio substantially, which is also blamed for the increase in PTSD...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.L.A._Marshall

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by radu_floricica on Thursday September 16, 2010 @04:55PM (#1699127)
If I were to be honest? I'd say the baby. No doubt about it. I'm pro abortion (and yes, this should make a difference in one's decision, after all it's only a few extra months), and I know that more then one primitive society considered infanticide a birth control method. None enjoyed it, but its use was pretty difficult to argue. So I am psychologically equipped to make this choice.

This being said, I would _never_ realistically propose this. The risk of being lynched, or at least severely handicapped socially in a critical situation are not negligible. After all, who would you rather throw, a 50 year old doctor, or a guy who just proposed throwing a baby?

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by nonce42 on Thursday September 16, 2010 @04:57PM (#1699129)
The Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dudley_and_Stephens is very interesting; it describes an actual case where one of the people in a lifeboat was killed and eaten by the others, who would have otherwise all died. They claimed it was a "custom of the sea" that you could draw lots and kill one victim in such circumstances, but the court decided in a highly controversial case that necessity is no defence against a charge of murder.

An amusing article about the trolley problem is "Brain Teaser" (http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/harper%27s.htm) which satirizes these ethics problems by adding an absurd number of conditions such as a busload of orphans, transplant patients about to die, a brain in a vat, and the inventor of the pop-top can.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by metellus on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:19PM (#1698628)
Another difference here is old age. Trees don't really die of old age (to my knowledge, and even if I'm wrong it doesn't matter because most people think trees won't die of old age), so both trees have an equal number of years left in their life expectancy. The doctor has already used up a lot of his potential.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by ewjordan on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:32PM (#1698676)
The doctor has already used up a lot of his potential.

But the baby has almost no potential. Well, that's not entirely clear...

Let me be more specific: the baby has some potential, but since it's too young, we don't know where on the Bell curve of potential it lies. Our change in expected value by throwing the baby overboard and making a brand new one is zero (at least once we casually discard the mother's grief, and the general distaste for throwing babies to sharks :) ).

We have to evaluate this against throwing the doctor overboard and starting with a fresh baby - the doctor has already proven that he's somewhere near the top of the Bell curve, so in order to figure out the utility of that trade, we need to consider how much he's likely to accomplish over the rest of his life as compared to what an average baby will accomplish during theirs.

Perhaps making the doctor 50 years old was a bit much, as it does raise questions about how much life he actually has left, and whether the (say) 20 years that he'll actually be practicing can be considered as useful as the 80 years the newborn has in front of it. I think there's still an argument to be made that 20 years of work from a highly qualified researcher is worth "more" than an average lifetime lived by an average person, but it's not crystal clear.

Suppose I'd made the doctor a brilliant 25 year old making great strides in cancer research - would that make a difference to you?

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by CWuestefeld on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:03PM (#1698564)
While in real life I'm sure that I couldn't actually bring myself to throw over either one, I agree completely with your analysis of baby vs. professor. I've long had these exact thoughts, and I really can't fathom the knee-jerk counter-rational idea that the baby automatically has the greatest value.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by stellar678 on Thursday September 16, 2010 @02:59PM (#1698745)
I think there's probably some evolutionary motivations tied up in this. If we weren't hardwired to prioritize the the life of our pre-reproductive members, well...we might not be around for too long. So saving the baby is a utilitarian decision motivated by our genome to ensure its survival!
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by rdrimmie on Thursday September 16, 2010 @03:24PM (#1698826)
I love the conflict. I guarantee you that my answer has changed since becoming a father, too.

A bit of indulgent nit-pickery: My first inclination would just be to move the younger tree. It wouldn't add significant costs to the investment of building a new road.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by bpyne on Thursday September 16, 2010 @03:46PM (#1698893)
Oddly, my mind went immediately to the 50 yo being larger and, in a flimsy lifeboat, more costly space-wise. In a life-threatening situation, I don't think I would stop to consider the relative benefit of each person to society.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by lhorie on Thursday September 16, 2010 @04:27PM (#1699042)
What's really interesting is that we are all here rationalizing whether to throw the doctor or the baby, when the hardest but perfectly politically correct choice is to throw yourself to the sharks.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by calloc on Thursday September 16, 2010 @05:19PM (#1699187)
Self preservation still plays a role. Unfortunately we as humans are wired by nature to always have a me before anyone else unless it is our offspring in which case that role is reversed.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by anigbrowl on Thursday September 16, 2010 @04:43PM (#1699083)
There are multiple things wrong with this, although I know you weren't aiming to exhaustive completeness. So my critique is directed at the philosophical argument, not you personally.

1. The tree issue is a false choice. Maybe I can just dig a hole and transplant the smaller one; perhaps I can modify my needs.

2a. From a callously practical point of view, the 50 year old doctor-professor will make a much larger and more satisfying meal for the hungry shark than the baby, which won't be much more than an appetizer.

Of course, we have to ask why we're putting the interest of humanity in general on such a pedestal, considering that society has yet to dispatch a rescue craft. Maybe we should keep the doctor around to treat the victims of future shark attacks or dehydration; in this sense 'society' looms only as large as our future life expectancy after the shark has gone. Then again, the doctor is heavier than the baby, and will consume a greater amount of food...

2b. Everyone else in this boat must be a Nobel prize winner or something if the successful medical researcher is the most disposable person after the baby. It's another false choice, in that it bolsters the hearer's ego while simultaneously limiting their choices - this exercise doesn't cater for the suggestion that one might sacrifice themselves to save both doctor and baby, for example - although the sad fact is that few people would, so in that sense it's accurately predicated on humans' general selfishness.

However, as a false choice it's dangerously seductive, and politicians work this one (or an inverted version) all the time: "We can't increase the debt (lifeboat)! Should we give a tax cut to the rich so they can create jobs (proven success) or waste it on giving welfare to bums (unknown outcome)?" or alternatively "My opponent is soft on crime. Are we going to get tough on criminals (proven bad) now or wait for some other innocent to die (unknown probability)?" You can construct endless variations on this, regardless of your political leanings: just stick with the formula of "Time is running out - do you want distasteful alternative A or repulsive alternative B?" and just tailor your argument to the known biases of whatever group you are addressing.

Underlying this argument is the implicit threat that if you don't make a choice, you'll be chosen instead. Republicans hint that not voting for the wealthy folks' interests could cause them to cut your job, Democrats murmur that the rich might find themselves sinners in the hands of an angry mob. Broad arguments that suggest joint stakes and responsibility (eg raise some taxes and cut some spending) tend to upset everyone, which is why they're only ever offered by politicians who are leaving office anyway.

2c. Value of the baby is unpredictable. Certainly if you take 100 babies and measure something (anything) about them now or in the future, you'll get a nice Gaussian distribution. But an individual baby's future is no more predictable than an individual roll of a dice. You are not any more likely to throw a 3 or a 4 than a 1 or a 6 or a 2 or a 5, even though the average of 100 throws will converge on a value of 3.5. Evaluating the probability in light of the doctor being a '6' is seductive, but only as long as you keep sidestepping the question of who else is in this boat that makes the doctor seem 2nd-most disposable. If the baby is the child of two world-class geniuses (neither of whom we would throw out before the doctor), then the probability of its future utility is high.

We could also wonder about what the average person will be capable of in 50 years' time thanks to technology, vs. the skilled person of today. Their relative utility to society then may be lower than that of the doctor to society today, but it might be larger in absolute terms. I am particularly wary of assuming the doctor's future utility over 25 years of natural life will exceed that of the average person's 50 years.

But the unpredictability of the individual is the more important factor. Suppose there are 100 lifeboats, none of which know about the others. If all 100 follow your advice and toss the babies, those with excellent future potential will be lost as surely as those of average or lesser potential.

2d. But the big issue here is the moral question, and here we have more rational responses than 'it's a baby, it feels so wrong!' Factors of weight, food consumption, shark appetite and life outcome probabilities aside, the basic argument against such a course is the defenseless nature of the baby; s/he cannot volunteer, acquiesce or even resist being thrown to the hungry shark the way the 50 year old doctor can, and this gives us an excellent reason to refuse the idea.

Is it because of a moral obligation towards defenseless beings? Sort of, but it's not rooted in any abstract philosophy. It's rooted in our self-interest: if we are in favor of sacrificing the defenseless, then then we are advertising our utility calculus to others in the boat. True, we are not sacrificing the baby because of its defenselessness, but we are not letting the fact mitigate against the utility function either. In a future round, we might throw out someone who's asleep because their wakeful utility is similarly imponderable; that increases the danger for all, since all need to sleep; nor can we exclude ourselves, since we began with the position that circumstances brook no delay.

Even if none of us sleep, or more sharks will arrive before we can, revealing our utility calculus allows everyone else to model it for themselves in relation to everyone else. Anyone expecting to be on the wrong end of a future comparison - the doctor/professor, for example - has an enormous incentive to throw us overboard first. Such a person can make a rather compelling argument that 'after me, you're next' to everyone whose assessed utility would be lower than our own; only those for whose survival we are willing to sacrifice ourselves have an incentive to let us remain. We have already demonstrated that we consider ourselves to be at least two steps away from being expendable simply by proposing the baby go overboard; on a practical level we might expect the mother to vote the interests of her baby, and so be similarly expendable to the extent that we consider her objections to increase the risk for the whole group.

On the other hand, if we argue for the survival of the baby, we are advertising our unwillingness to make decisions about unknowables and to defend the vulnerable, an attractive quality to everyone on the boat who is not fully assured of their own survival and social utility. Given the prevalence and success fo tit-for-tat strategies in iterated prisoner's dilemma games, it's probably in our interest to identify ourselves as cooperators rather than defectors. I say probably since there's always the possibility of being on a boat full of defectors...in which case it might be better to take one's chances with the shark, who is at least honest about his intentions.

If this seems a rather involved reply, it's because I've thought about this in more than purely hypothetical terms. A day after her birth, my wife was taken aboard a ship which was part of a refugee convoy of 8 vessels. There was a storm on the second or third night of the journey, and 6 of the boats sank, with no survivors. Besides the horrifying experience my in-laws endured, I'd say she outscores me on a social utility scale too.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by smallblacksun on Thursday September 16, 2010 @04:45PM (#1699093)
Forcing anyone out of the lifeboat is murder, period. If someone chooses to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of the others, good for them. The baby cannot make the choice for itself.
Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by ewjordan on Friday September 17, 2010 @04:50AM (#1700504)
Sure, it's murder. But I suspect most people would, on occasion, find justification to murder in order to save lives (or even just to save "more important" lives - wars are fought all the time on the theory that the lives of a country's citizens are more important than the lives of foreigners).

On reflection, perhaps a better reframing of this thought experiment (to avoid many of the issues that others have brought up) would be that a murderer has broken into your house and tied you up, along with a baby and a highly accomplished but relatively young person, and offers you the choice of which one of the others he's going to kill, along with a credible assurance that he'll kill all of you if you don't choose one (and you're not allowed to pick yourself, just because), and he'll really let the remaining two of you free once you've made a choice. Further, you're not allowed to discuss with the others, so there's no opportunity for anyone to sacrifice themselves.

Re:Kill Whitey- It’s the right thing to do. by jrockway on Thursday September 16, 2010 @04:05PM (#1698955)
Yeah, I'd kill the baby. It's not mine, so what do I care?