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Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by sillysaurus3 on Sunday April 29, 2018 @12:39PM (#16952715)
This is a much bigger deal than people are giving it credit for.

At any point in history, have CAs revoked certs solely to censor a target website?

Maybe the answer is yes. I don't know. But this is a rude wake-up call for me and everyone else who tried to force the world into this shape.

We've all been shouting "You have to use TLS! It's fundamental security 101. If you're not using https, your site is probably broken. And there's no reason not to do it, since it's so easy."

Surprise: Now nobdoy trusts http, and those that control https can revoke their trust based on arbitrary human morals rather than solid technical reasons.

I was a pentester for years and not once did anybody mention this threat anywhere. It's blindingly obvious in hindsight, but it was too easy not to think about it.

Let's Encrypt is in the exact same position. Why do we trust them? Think about it -- they're under US jurisdiction and subject to US laws. The government could compel them to revoke certs.

We're lucky that it's just a minor annoyance. Picture a world where no major browser renders http at all, and the only way to get a site online is to have a trusted cert.

This is not far from reality: If the Magic Leap turns out not to be vaporware, they're going to be launching a DRM-powered internet that can't be adblocked. And that means we'll all be subject to government whims far more than we'd like to admit.

Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by lfam on Sunday April 29, 2018 @01:12PM (#16952859)
It's true HTTPS traffic can be blocked (at least partially) by revoking certificates, but is this worse than the censorship opportunities offered by unauthenticated HTTP?

Whether the traffic is authenticated or not, ISPs block sites when instructed by government orders. And that is much harder to work around than a revoked TLS cert (although a revoked cert does mean "totally blocked" for almost all users).

These are not purely technical challenges, but rather political issues that must be addressed as such. We will always lose to our governments if we focus only on technical solutions to censorship.

I'd like to add that the USA government, for the most part, does not accept an absolute right to private communication. The possibility of ubiquitous end-to-end encrypted communications with tools like TLS and WhatsApp is not something we should take for granted. The USA matters here because we are the powerful nation with the strongest legal and cultural commitment to freedom of speech.

Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by ethbro on Sunday April 29, 2018 @01:21PM (#16952902)
> At any point in history, have CAs revoked certs solely to censor a target website?

Revoking certs from US CAs is probably the new DNS seizure, post- encryption and TLD expansion.

Although hopefully it'll die a quick death when they realize it's ineffective.

Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by staticassertion on Sunday April 29, 2018 @02:06PM (#16953129)
I do not see how censorship at the CA level is worse than the ISP/ DNS level. We should not discourage people from using TLS because it allows for one of many other methods to censor.

SEC takedowns have happened for years without relying on TLS.

Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by Xylakant on Sunday April 29, 2018 @02:38PM (#16953259)
ISP/DNS-takedowns affect only customers of a single provider. Compelling every US provider is tedious and would still not affect people in other jurisdictions. CA-levy takedowns affect everyone.
Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by mikeash on Sunday April 29, 2018 @05:58PM (#16954141)
A takedown against the hosting ISP would affect everyone, and DNS takedowns can involve changing the authoritative record.
Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by Xylakant on Monday April 30, 2018 @03:29AM (#16956517)
The site can still move to a different jurisdiction and mirrors would still work. As evidenced by various takedown attempts against Sci-Hib.
Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by mikeash on Monday April 30, 2018 @12:55PM (#16960207)
A site can move to a different CA and mirrors would still work.
Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by maxerickson on Sunday April 29, 2018 @12:49PM (#16952756)
All the various DNS alternatives people have pitched over the years pretty directly address the centralization issue you are getting at here. Often by casting themselves as decentralized.

Really the issue is that decentralization isn't very compatible with convenience and people generally place a lot more value on convenience than things like Sci-Hub.

Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by ams6110 on Sunday April 29, 2018 @12:57PM (#16952796)
Self-signed certificates, trust on first use (or verify out of band) like SSH, works around most of this
Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by ethbro on Sunday April 29, 2018 @01:13PM (#16952867)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the signed server-identifying cert is swapped in TLS before the connection is encrypted, no?

So it's not technically infeasible to have networking gear drop any connection which doesn't chain back to a government-approved root?

Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by cesarb on Sunday April 29, 2018 @03:13PM (#16953435)
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the signed server-identifying cert is swapped in TLS before the connection is encrypted, no?

Only on old TLS versions. TLS 1.3 changed it so the server certificate is also encrypted.

Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by catamorphismic on Tuesday May 01, 2018 @07:21AM (#16966103)
What about SNI?
Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by userbinator on Sunday April 29, 2018 @01:31PM (#16952961)
So it's not technically infeasible to have networking gear drop any connection which doesn't chain back to a government-approved root?

Yse, and that is a very scary thought. China is doing something similar already.

Re:Tell HN: Sci-Hub's TLS certificate has started failing by ams6110 on Sunday April 29, 2018 @01:51PM (#16953050)
You could use a VPN. If you live in a place like China that blocks VPNs, you are screwed, agreed.