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Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by drewg123 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @02:18PM (#16892544)
It was not heart surgery, but after being diagnosed with lung cancer, my mother had one of her lungs removed by a surgeon who assured us he'd be able to get all the cancer. She had a miserable, painful recovery that I would not wish on anybody. Within a week or two of her recovering to the point where she could walk short distances, the cancer was found in her other lung and went on to kill her within a few more months. She may have gained several months of life from this operation, but it was a painful few months without dignity.

It was 20 years ago, so my memory is fuzzy, but I don't remember ever being presented with anything but certainty from the surgeon that he could cure her. I think that patients and surgeons need to have a better idea of the realistic chance of success from a major surgery in order to make an informed decision. Perhaps if surgeons at least have to worry about their own numbers, they might hesitate before attempting cases like my mother's.

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by Johnny555 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @03:18PM (#16892880)
Sadly, it seems that your mother would not have had a better outcome with or without the surgery - if the doctor had said "I'm 75% sure that the cancer is contained in the one lung, so removing the lung will remove the cancer", would that have changed the decision to have the surgery? What it was was 50%? What is the threshold where someone with a fatal illness will accept the risk for a possible cure?
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by emodendroket on Saturday April 21, 2018 @03:44PM (#16893023)
Perhaps the patient should have the right to decide what that threshold is for themselves rather than having the information hidden from them.
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by untog on Saturday April 21, 2018 @04:31PM (#16893273)
It's difficult to judge from a twenty year old story, but certainly these days patients do not have any information hidden from them. I had a family member with cancer, and the doctors were very clear that an operation might get all the cancer, but that they could not guarantee anything.

They left the decision in our hands, and in many ways that's not better - how on earth are we supposed to decide? They also can't tell you with any certainty what the after-effects will be because no-one knows.

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by tajen on Saturday April 21, 2018 @04:42PM (#16893332)
It’s a known Freakonomics effect that doctors treat themselves much less in case of cancer. They don’t want to just prolong their life if it’s only going to be painful longer, because they know the probabilities and the outcomes better.
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by viraptor on Saturday April 21, 2018 @05:54PM (#16893627)
> because they know the probabilities and the outcomes better.

Probabilities and outcomes, or the process? Patients do get pretty good estimates and information these days. They don't have a good idea what chemo feels like though and what people think about the side effects. Doctors get that from seeing their patients.

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by calcifer on Saturday April 21, 2018 @04:20PM (#16893230)
What information? Apparently the doctor told them he could do it. If he really believed in himself, then he told the patient everything she needed to know. Remember, the other option is "go die". So assigning a percentage chance on the successful outcome of a surgery is utterly meaningless when the alternative is a 100% "go die".
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by 9a89df7a09sdf8 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @06:41PM (#16893769)
respectfully, this isn't the way to conceptualize any medical therapy. it's never "this will save you" or "go die", it's always "you will eventually die, this might forestall it, we're never sure, and there's a big list of potential drawbacks."

a person who can be helped by a medical intervention will die no matter what, but if they get an organ transplant or a pacemaker or continuous dialysis or a cancer removed, they may live a little bit longer, as far as scientists observe, although sometimes with significant difficulties. immunosuppression and chemotherapy both deactivate certain organ systems.

no one can see the future. cancer treatments seem to help some people and be useless for others, and it might all come down to something like, "uh cancer stem cell #13491340 was not destroyed, and there was metastasis." the idea with tumor excision is usually to prevent there from being so many potentially-metastatic stems.

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by newfoundglory on Saturday April 21, 2018 @04:51PM (#16893374)
That's not true at all. Would you want to have surgery done if it had a guaranteed 3 month recovery period of incredible pain, a 5% chance of curing you, and a 95% chance of doing nothing, when your alternative is "nothing will hurt, but in 12 months you'll drop dead"?
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by theonemind on Saturday April 21, 2018 @11:31PM (#16894576)
Not really. A treatment can decrease quality of life to the point where you don't want to live, or perhaps bankrupt your family for a small chance of success. This logic only holds if you assign infinite value to "live at any cost"
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by acjohnson55 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @11:41PM (#16894595)
Realistically, you're going to die either way. We know that for sure. So what's really important is some notion of probability of quality time.
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by eslaught on Sunday April 22, 2018 @12:38AM (#16894729)
Ultimately, it's about responsibility: is the patient allowed to take responsibility for the decision, or does the doctor take that opportunity away by not presenting the information (or presenting it in a way that allows the patient to actually decide)? This may sound odd, but I've seen deep emotional scarring in friends and family who went through major surgeries, even when the operations themselves had medically "good" outcomes... and all because the time and care wasn't taken to give the patient autonomy over their own treatment.

Making a decision vs having one made for you are very different things, even if the outcome of the decision is the same.

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by sharmi on Saturday April 21, 2018 @03:25PM (#16892916)
I do not intend to diminish the suffering your mother has gone through or, in consequence, your mental agony. I myself have watched a close relative suffer. Treatment that just prolongs the agony is hellish and pointless.

Having said that, I just wanted to add a small message of hope for those in similar situations. Atleast in the case of lung cancer, the situation is vastly improved now. The variants of lung cancer that are most prevalent now can be managed with oral medication alone and the patients can recover to go on and lead normal lives. This is from experience seeing another close relative suffer terribly from lung cancer (mainly because diagnosis of lung cancer itself is very hard as the symptoms show up very late and can be mistaken for other issues) and has now miraculously recovered and is back onto his normal routine.

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by ReallyAnonymous on Sunday April 22, 2018 @10:16AM (#16896246)
I've taken care of numerous people living with their lung cancer. It becomes difficult when they develop another cancer, e.g. breast. Do you do axillary dissection or just radiate the axilla? Anyway, melanoma, lymphoma and lung CA (and breast) have seen remarkable improvements in the last 20 years.

When I was an undergraduate I worked in the lab of Dr. Robert Bast to pad my resume - he went on to head cancer research at MD Anderson. He's the doctor that discovered the CA-125 ovarian tumor marker. Anyway, 26 years ago he told me he thought we'd have a cure for cancer in the next 10 years. I think he's off by 40-50, but we are making strides

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by endymi0n on Saturday April 21, 2018 @02:47PM (#16892702)
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by xab9 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @03:57PM (#16893097)
I always tell myself that modern medicine is a gamble. No medicine at all is a death sentence though.

I work with software and we gotta give estimates in hours (because the managers didn't like complexity numbers), you know, like add a dropown to the search page or whatnot and I say yeah sure, it's simple, one hour... and then I end up in prehistoric spaghetti land for two days.

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by ReallyAnonymous on Sunday April 22, 2018 @08:26AM (#16895871)
if it's any consolation, I'm a surgeon, and in my town, another surgeon's wife was diagnosed with lung cancer right after his last weekend of call. She underwent surgery / chemo / radiation and died within 4 months and later (he kept working bc his plans of taking time to see the world with his wife were ruined) he told me that she would have been better off just going on hospice bc she suffered. Hindsight, unfortunately, is 20-20.

Cardiac surgeons in the US have had their own database for >20 years, and vascular surgeons do too. General surgeons have gotten into it the last 10 years or so

https://www.facs.org/quality-programs/acs-nsqip

I'm the NSQIP champion for my hospital system and go to monthly meetings to review our system's data. There's a lot of controversy with the data. We show individuals their data as compared to their anonymized peer data. Recently, the credentialling committee wanted access to the data, and that is being discussed, but I'm against it because the data only samples your outcomes, not every case, so it can be biased (although as you get more cases sampled, hopefully, the pattern established becomes more relevant). Anyway, it can be humbling.

Moreover, all deaths / OR take backs / readmissions get reviewed by a hospital committee and in the 15 years I've been in practice, there have been 4 surgeons in town that have lost their privileges to operate at the hospital.

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by metaobject on Saturday April 21, 2018 @03:03PM (#16892793)
I guess I'm just shocked that the surgeon could offer that level of assurance about something like that.
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by astura on Saturday April 21, 2018 @03:22PM (#16892903)
Unbelievable! The five year survival rate for lung cancer is only 18%! Even when the cancer is localized the five year survival rate is only 55%![1]

It's irresponsible for the doctor to not give a reasonable prognosis!

[1]http://www.lung.org/lung-health-and-diseases/lung-disease-lo...

Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by user5994461 on Saturday April 21, 2018 @04:27PM (#16893257)
Maybe lung cancer wasn't as understood 20 years ago as today.
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by mjfl on Saturday April 21, 2018 @11:25PM (#16894561)
we should find this person and sue them for what I'm sure is a 100% accurate retelling of a 20-year old story on hacker news.
Re:Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor ... by jpmattia on Saturday April 21, 2018 @11:50PM (#16894611)
> I guess I'm just shocked that the surgeon could offer that level of assurance about something like that

I'm not. That's been my experience with pretty much every surgeon, and even a fair amount of the non-surgical doctors. Letting patients see uncertainty and indecision is not part of the medical school culture, as near as I can tell.

It behooves anyone with serious medical issues to do independent research. (God help you if you don't already know how to deep learn on literature not in your field.)