The front wheel still kicks out in the opposite direction and counter steers for you due to the natural stabilizing properties of the bike

You can, but it's not very effective.

This 3 minute video explains how important counter-steering is with some actual experiments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWuTcJcqAng

Easiest way to try/prove this is ride without holding handlebars. You can turn corners easily.

Limits (compared to regular turning) are your lowest speed is higher (where you'd lose balance without holding handlebars) and the fact your center of gravity and stability are messed up (can't turn as tightly). And self preservation of course.

See 2:33 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWuTcJcqAng&t=2m33s

Turning by leaning only works at all because when you lean it causes the handlebars to countersteer.

To prove it, lock your handlebars so that they can only point straight forwards, and then see how easy it is to steer. It's practically impossible.

> To prove it, lock your handlebars

It's impossible to start going straight even. The point was that leaning will initiate the turn (no limits on method).

> Turning by leaning only works at all because when you lean it causes the handlebars to countersteer.

That's totaly not my experience.

With all due respect, your experience, internet denizen, is overruled by reported experiment. See the video linked above.

It's experience vs reported experiment, I don't see how one is can overrule the other. I'll check the video later.

You're right, "overrule" is probably too strong a term.

I meant it more as a comparison between anecdotal evidence vs research evidence. I.e., someone saying "I've never seen a fire, I'm not sure why we need to bother with fire drills."

Maybe better would be "why bother getting vaccinations, I've never seen a bacteria in my life."

I've watched the video linked above in the thread and I admit that I was wrong, that I would countersteer when riding a bike, it's just that I don't realize it.

There's just one thing that I don't understand: on a bike, with the hands of the handlebar, I can turn right by leaning right, but I don't understand how leaning right would cause the countersteer left.

It should be recognized that you were willing to admit you were wrong - personally I find nothing in the world harder to do, let alone on the internet. That's awesome.

Here's another video that helped it click for me when I didn't get it either https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU It's more "phsyics-ey"

When your hands are off the handlebar and you "lean right," the handlebars won't visibly "turn left," and if they do it will only be for the briefest moment. It only takes the tiniest countersteer to cause the "lean angle." It has to happen because your handlebars are non-rigid.

Let me know what you think after the video above. IIRC it has the "rolling cup" example, which for me works best.

Yeah it was hard to admit I was wrong.

I watched the video above and another one and I'm getting it a little better. Also another thing is that recently I've been riding a bike rather slowly, at speed where countersteering is not necessary and less visible, as shown in another video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc). And as for countersteering while the hands off the handlebars, I realise that usually my eyes are on the road, not the handlebars, so I'd easily miss the brief countersteering.

Thank you for your patience too!

I've done a lot of riding without holding handlebars, so that's how I learned this.

Another limits is that you've got a delay to reach the brakes, which can make it dangerous for others in addition to yourself. And I agree that having your center of gravity moved up really mess up your stability.

Only if you've got a stupid racing bike with only hand brakes. Coaster/foot/back-pedal brakes are standard issue around these parts, and I wouldn't ever want to ride a bike without one.

Depends on how you ride. An adult in the US, you're on a road bike bent over the bars and going 15-20mph. Hands on the brakes at all times. I do a ride every summer with 20,000 like-minded people and if you see even one bike with coaster brakes all week its unusual.

Europe is full of city bikes with coaster brakes. Everybody here has a bike, not just the hard-core bikers.

I've rarely seen coaster brakes, especially among the non hard-core bikers here in Paris.

I don't know if all 20,000 people are hard-core. Its just that road bikes are very, very common. Kids bikes might have coaster breaks, sure. But hardly anybody over 15 has one.

You don't have hipsters in your town?

they ride fat -tire or fixie bikes :)

Brakes on rear wheels only are relatively ineffective, so I don't understand why you would prefer them. Unless there is such a thing as a front wheel pedal brake, which I have never heard of.

Why is hand brakes stupid? Much better control/modulation, especially with hydraulic disc brakes.

Rim brakes either grip too hard or not enough, and sometimes don't work very well in rain, and need regular maintenance and replacement. Coaster brake supplemented by hand brakes for emergency stops just feels safer and more in control in traffic situations.

Unless your feet are on the pedals wrong...

> stupid racing bike with only hand brakes

Or cheap basic road bike.