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Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by limeblack on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:28AM (#16864609)
Honest question. Why don't people buy old laptops instead of cheaper new ones? I'm no expert but the cost to performance ratio isn't to far off. I am typing this on T420 Thinkpad laptop. I get desiring to use open hardware but at the detriment of performance doesn't quite make sense.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by deng on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @03:32AM (#16865441)
That's what I do as well, but in my experience you need to do some serious reading before buying one. Some people claim you can buy the Txxx models pretty much blindly, but then you might be in for a surprise. The worst offender are the displays. I know these machines are office machines, but that's no excuse to use panels with deplorable contrast and brightness (look up the T410 and T420 on notebookcheck). Even current models like the T450 can come with displays with a contrast of 234:1 and brightness of 163 cd/m². Working with 'solarized' or 'zenburn' on such a panel is not fun at all, especially outdoors... Then there's the trackpad of the x40 series (T440, T540), which many people find unusable (you can change it against the one from the T450, though). Also, not all Txxx are equally serviceable. The 'p' series is much better in this regard than the 's' series, for instance. But yes, I agree that used Thinkpads are often a good choice - mostly good Linux support, very serviceable, and it is very easy to get replacement parts like keyboards, trackpads and panels for many years.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by ZirconiumX on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @04:55AM (#16865800)
I have a T410 and have to use the Nyan Cat Terminology skin simply because that's the only way the cursor shows up against the background. Additionally, the i5-520M is a little anaemic for my use cases, with effectively no hardware video decode and no AVX2.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by gaius on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @03:25AM (#16865395)
Honest question. Why don't people buy old laptops instead of cheaper new ones?

Because the batteries are knackered and new ones aren’t available for old models. Tho’ this does vary by vendor. Chinese knock-off batteries are usually available but carry their own risks.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by xorcist on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @03:29AM (#16865418)
While I agree on the battery part, which is generally what dies first (that or fans), most batteries are available on eBay. I recently bought a new battery for a T60, a laptop which is over ten years old.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by gaius on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @03:30AM (#16865424)
Original part or generic clone?
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by rwmj on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @04:26AM (#16865681)
I think a cloned, new battery might even be better in this particular case. An original battery that's been sitting on a shelf for 10 years is e-waste.

There are several articles online about how hard it is to store Li-Ion batteries, eg: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batt...

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by gaius on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @05:07AM (#16865839)
A new part made by the original vendor is infinitely preferable to an off-brand clone. There have been too many stories of “bargain” LiOns catching fire!
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by terminalcommand on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @06:14AM (#16866106)
I think I lost my x201 due to a Chinese battery. After I used the replacement battery I think a Mosfet transistor burned out inside. The laptop wouldn't turn on, and if turned on it closed in matter of seconds.

Although the actual cause might be different (I'm no expert) I've become cautious of super cheap Chinese 9-cell batteries.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by rwmj on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @06:57AM (#16866257)
Oh absolutely. It's a shame there's not a reputable company making replacement compatible batteries for old laptops and phones. I guess the original companies have design patents to try to stop this.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by opencl on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @08:10AM (#16866653)
It's not hard to rebuild old laptop battery packs with new 18650 cells.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by deng on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:45AM (#16867322)
It's often not easy, either. It very much depends on the battery and the used controller. Make sure to always have enough voltage on the controller, since it might shutdown on power loss, leaving you with a battery with '0.0Wh capacity', regardless of the new cells. Also, some battery packs might require you to solder the cells, which is not for the faint of heart.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by tacoman on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:34AM (#16867231)
I've tried rebuilding the battery for an x220 twice and both times the battery case ended up too damaged to be used. I'm about to fork over $100+ for my forth battery for this machine.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by inetsee on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @10:16AM (#16867552)
I am confused. I have a Thinkpad X220 I bought used. The original battery is still usable for my purposes. (I don't use it for travel so I haven't tried using it for more than a few hours at a time.) I just looked on Ebay and the most expensive batteries listed for the X220 are less than $50, with some less than $20. Am I missing something?
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by dragontamer on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:54PM (#16868898)
As a rule of thumb, any laptop battery for less than $50 is recycled crap.

There are companies who mix-and-match recycled cells and combine them into Ebay batteries out there. Beyond the explosion risk innate to Li-Ion, you're going to get bad battery life with these recycled cells in the very best case.

The cheapest "legitimate" laptop batteries I've found come in the ~$80 mark.

-------------

A good and proper 18650 cell costs $7.50 alone, and you'll need six of them to build a laptop battery.

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-INR18650-25R-Rechargeable-Bat...

That's $45 for 6x proper cells straight from the manufacturer. Plus labor, plus all the other parts of the laptop battery (chassis, protection circuit, etc. etc.). Anyone selling for less than $50 is straight up recycled mix-and-match junk. Its the only way you get to $20.

And before you go look up cheaper cells: Ultrafire cells are recycled junk. So ignore all of those listings. Its best to stick with Panasonic / Samsung / other name brands.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by vuln on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @10:25AM (#16867623)
Man, I was thinking about taking on this challenge next. I have 2 of the extended batteries that work excellent but the regular battery wont hold a charge for more than a few hours.

So the main issue was not damaging the case? Did you have any references or guides?

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by tacoman on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @06:32PM (#16871849)
The cases aren't meant to be opened. I followed some guides on YouTube. Most require using a saw and really sharp knife.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by codetrotter on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @08:31AM (#16866801)
Can you recommend a good place to get new 18650 cells? I live in Norway.

I’ve been wanting to order some but obviously don’t want to buy them from some rando off of eBay because I don’t trust that they will

1. actually be new, and

2. that even if they are new they won’t explode in my face

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by DanBC on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:22AM (#16867143)
I'd use Farnell. They're a huge, reputable, supplier that takes product direct from the manufacturers.

I don't know how easy it is to get them to ship to you, nor how easy it is for individuals to buy from them.

UK: http://uk.farnell.com/search?st=18650

Norway: http://no.farnell.com/search?st=18650

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by gaius on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @08:36AM (#16866847)
Genuine Panasonic 18650s are decent. Not had any problems so far with ThruNite either.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by cat199 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:15AM (#16867099)
there is probably a more 'electronics' source available, but these are pretty much the go-to batteries for vaping, so probably any reputable vaping vendor might be a good, if overpriced supply...
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by 112233 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:23AM (#16867151)
Norway? Isn't Nkon next to your door?
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by codetrotter on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:38AM (#16867261)
Never heard of Nkon. If you mean in the almost literal sense then I think you might be conflating Norway and the Netherlands? But if you just mean that they are next door in terms of being in Europe then yes so it seems. I’ll have a look at them thanks, along with the others people have mentioned.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by 112233 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:44AM (#16867309)
Yes, I meant that-end-of-EU, sorry for coming off cheeky. Winning the great EU customs roulette with batteries is not worth it if there is an OKish intraEU seller. Plus, a lot of discussions about it's batteries in .ru (!) internets.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by pi-rat on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @10:00AM (#16867428)
Hey, also live in Norway, I've ordered from NKON before, just use https://ru.nkon.nl (we're outside the EU VAT region).
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by sjellis on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:59AM (#16865001)
"Honest question. Why don't people buy old laptops instead of cheaper new ones?"

That's exactly how I've done desktop Linux: buy ex-corporate laptops from a reputable refurbisher. You get a quality machine with a good chassis and keyboard, highly-compatible internals (all-Intel) and a decent screen for a good price. Performance doesn't matter if you aren't doing stuff that actually needs the power. Trade-offs are worse power management, and short life-span (I change my Linux laptop every couple of years).

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by intrasight on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:33AM (#16864632)
I do agree. You can get used X and T series Thinkpads for a couple hundred dollars. They will outlive most cheap new laptops.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by freedomben on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:43AM (#16864690)
If you get a good one. I've been burned so many times now by people selling something they know has problems. They often don't manifest during the "test drive." It sucks.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by cubano on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:49AM (#16864711)
Refurbished by a reputable re-seller always seems to work well for me, altho it adds a bit to the cost.

I've picked up i5(2600)/8g/500G laptops for 150 like this on several occasions.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by crowbahr on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:49AM (#16864973)
And who is a reputable reseller of old ThinkPads? It seems like it's the wild west in the market and I am interested in an old reliable ThinkPad with an expansion slot for an ssd.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by cubano on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @02:03AM (#16865019)
I've had good luck so far (knock wood) with Newegg...let me find a link...

https://www.newegg.com/Laptop-Notebooks/RefurbishedStore/ID-...

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by crowbahr on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @02:20AM (#16865097)
Sounds great, thanks for the link.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:04AM (#16867018)
Yahoo auctions in Japan is reliable. They also ship overseas.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by loser777 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:51AM (#16864719)
The advantage of a T- or X- series is that they are common fleet models so you can buy from a bulk reseller that is less likely to be passing off a single dud.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by freedomben on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:02AM (#16864770)
Is there a specific bulk reseller that you use that you could recommend?
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by bunfunton on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:25AM (#16864864)
What kind of issues do people conceal?
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by quickthrower2 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:34AM (#16864911)
I got a refurb Thinkpad and:

1. Battery puked out pretty quickly, so that's $100 (AUD) to fix on a $500 second hand laptop.

2. Some keys stopped working, could be bad luck as laptops have shite keyboards normally.

Both are not necessarily concealed issues BUT this is the kind of shit you are dealing with with second hand laptops and the savings don't seem to justify it, for me anyway. Plus less NSAWare.

The main benefit of buying second hand is the 'good for the environment' feeling it gave me.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by xorcist on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @03:32AM (#16865442)
What kind of NSAware are you worried about, and why do you think buying new would lessen those chances?

While a refurbisher could potentially insert malware, they're not going to do it for the NSA.

Old Thinkpads are also generally well supported by libreboot/coreboot, so that's one less attack vector to worry about.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by quickthrower2 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @04:15PM (#16870757)
Oops. Textual screwup. I meant less NSAware as a plus for the older laptop.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by dajt on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:43AM (#16864946)
The keyboard at least might be a cheap fix. I got a new Thinkpad and the right-hand shift key was useless which is the one I use. I couldn't be bothered returning it and bought a keyboard off ebay. About 5 - 10 mins to install and its great now.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by ekianjo on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @09:06AM (#16867027)
You can actually deactivate the Intel ME on the older thinkpads, so thats better if you are worried about NSAWare.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by bwbw223 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @08:42PM (#16872518)
Some enterprise IT departments have piles of them, if you have connections.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by shams93 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:45AM (#16864955)
Yeah I went the same way as you got a t420 upgraded to ssd and threw Ubuntu studio in it and it smokes. I use it for everything from native Android development to music and video production and with lxde compared to windows 10 it's smoking fast even though it's not exactly lightweight. When you dj with a laptop the last thing you want is a flimsy device. Mixxx enables me to dj on the same device I use for software engineering.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by crowbahr on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @02:07AM (#16865036)
Do you have the i7 or i5? How is the android emulator (or do you debug on the phone)? I'm looking into a better mobile setup.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by greenshackle2 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @11:38AM (#16868221)
I bought a refurbished T410 from Ebay with an i7, discrete GPU and 1440x900 display, for like $250, and put a SSD in it.

The big limitations of this model are:

- Display has poor contrast

- Even with discrete GPU, worse performance than modern integrated graphics - it can drive 1080p monitors and play old and some indie games, not much more than that

- Max 8GB of RAM

- No USB 3 (but I have a USB 3 express card which works ok)

- Not great battery life - more recent CPUs are not THAT much faster but they are less power-hungry

Its upsides are:

- Classic thinkpad keyboard and clit mouse (if you're into that)

- Cheap, easy to find refurbished accessories (though I don't know for how much longer this will be true)

For my use (mostly development on Ubuntu), it works pretty well. For computation heavy stuff I remote into a 6-core Dell Precision I got refurbished for $400 (DDR3 ECC RAM is cheap as dirt).

Unless you have particular needs for high-perf CPU or GPU, or want extra-long battery life I'd buy a refurb and throw an SSD in it over buying a brand new laptop every time.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by megy on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:29AM (#16864617)
I bet this is cheaper, and lighter than your thinkpad, with a better battery and require less care.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by loser777 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:54AM (#16864728)
Cheap for good reason; an A53 quad core is Raspberry Pi 3 class. Hope every package you're gonna need is precompiled for arm64 because building anything nontrivial is not going to be fun.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by geofft on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:12AM (#16864805)
Can you not cross-compile from a cloud instance? It seems like compiling software would be a perfect fit for per-minute or per-second VMs.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by RandomCSGeek on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @02:15AM (#16865072)
I used a aws spot instance to compile GCC for Alpine Linux. It's a decent idea I think, especially if you already know what you need to do.

I had to do a lot of trial and error stuff to get it right, but anyway, I was having that spot instance sitting there almost idle, while using up the credits I got for free, so I had no issues with it.

The C5 instances are great for this kind of stuff.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by phaer on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:48AM (#16864968)
I got my x220 for 150€ plus 70€ (3 years ago, still running smooth) for a new replacement battery, so it's not directly comparable. The x220 might be a bit heavier but it's not too bad and I got a x86 cpu (i5-2540M) with 8GB of memory compared to the arm64 with 2GB in the pinebook. Considering the memory usage of many contemporary desktop programs thats makes quite a difference too me
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by limeblack on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:33AM (#16864634)
I got this thinkpad without hard drive for under $100 so they are a lot closer then some would have guessed.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by msh on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:37AM (#16864659)
And how long does its battery last?
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by examancer on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:48AM (#16864710)
10000mah and an ARM A53 mean it should last 10 hours or more with moderate brightness settings. It's hard to beat this for a light cheap terminal/browser with plenty of battery if that is something you need.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by crowbahr on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:52AM (#16864979)
Reviews I read said 4-6 hours. Poorly optimized probably.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by jandrese on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @11:30AM (#16868146)
I bet it's software compositing. GPU acceleration doesn't work on those boards last time I checked, so it's probably having to do a lot more work on the CPU. It would also explain why it feels so sluggish despite being on paper more powerful than a Raspberry Pi. You should probably forget about trying to play video on it.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by larkeith on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:42AM (#16864684)
Can't speak for parent, but my T430s lasts for three or four hours, despite longterm heavy battery use. Beware of Lenovo's rootkits if looking to buy from them, however.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by Stratoscope on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @01:07AM (#16864785)
ThinkPads never had the rootkits, it was the consumer Lenovo models that had them. Very different culture between those two groups.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by antoineMoPa on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:53AM (#16864725)
I like both old laptops and new chromebooks, but I prefer my Chromebook for university, since it is very light (I walk ~45 minutes per day).

I think that this Pinebook thing would be a perfect replacement for my Chromebook once I drop coffee on it by mistake. However, it would be even better with a x86 like my current Chromebook. It is not that much of a problem, since I remember living happily with my old ARM Chromebook with crouton (before the screen died).

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by icc97 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @05:26AM (#16865901)
I do, I bought a refurbished T430, core i5, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD and run it dual-boot with Windows / Fedora. Works brilliantly, I do all my work on it.

I brought a second one of the same spec for my 5yo daughter out of curiosity. Thinkpads are perfect for kids as they're built much tougher and can take serious amounts of liquid spills on the keyboard.

I have problems with sound and DVD playback on the second one I bought, but screen, speed and general reliability has been great.

Plus I also had an issue with the microphone jack on the first one I bought.

Battery life isn't great (~3hrs), but I typically don't need the battery for that long.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by bloat on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @02:35AM (#16865160)
There's also places selling them with libreboot. E.g. minifree.org
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by buildbuildbuild on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @05:24AM (#16865890)
I'm a big fan of any i7 MBP generation that still has normal USB ports. After battery replacement cost used Macbook Pros are still a great deal for quality and speed, especially running a linux distro. #NotMyDongle
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by AnnoyingSwede on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @04:21AM (#16865667)
I second this. All laptops i bought lately are 2nd hand thinkpads. You cant get more bang/quality for the buck. A new battery and a large SSD are generally the only things that go into it.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by tombert on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @12:03PM (#16868435)
I don't own one of these yet, but I just signed up for the waiting list because I a) want to support a more-open hardware than the x86/x64 duopoly we have with most laptops, and because I would like as many components in my laptop to be as open as possible.

As a developer, I want to make sure my stuff works with ARM, if for no other reason to help the ecosystem a bit.

Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by khedoros1 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @02:36AM (#16865165)
I considered doing that, but I found a refurb Lenovo 11e for $190. I went for it because it's a bit smaller (11.6") and is "ruggedized" for the classroom. That latter is a benefit having a 3 year old around. It also had a fair bit of its original warranty left. Buying a used laptop off of Ebay or whatever sounded less appealing.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by raesene9 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @03:36AM (#16865462)
I'd second this having just tried this yesterday. I picked up a Thinkpad X230 for £150. Battery test (looped windowed youtube video running over wi-fi) lasted 3 hours, so that's fine and the laptop itself all seems to work as expected.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by GordonS on Thursday April 19, 2018 @07:37AM (#16874980)
Was that from ebay? I'm in the UK too, not sure of the best place to buy used Thinkpads
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by raesene9 on Friday April 20, 2018 @04:02PM (#16888056)
I got it from an amazon seller, but I think a lot of them sell on eBay too.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by KozmoNau7 on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @02:13AM (#16865068)
X220i here, 128GB SSD, 8GB RAM, runs like new. I put in a new 9-cell battery, and that's all I had to do. Amazing little machine, especially for the price 2nd hand.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by fulafel on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @02:39AM (#16865176)
I hope the availability of nice used ThinkPads is sustainable. I guess it's fine as long as they keep selling well new and the used ones don't become popular.
Re:Pinebook: An Affordable 64-bit ARM based Open Source Note... by michaelmrose on Wednesday April 18, 2018 @04:46AM (#16865760)
I'm with you I recently purchased a thinkpad s3 yoga made in 2014/15 for $275. Works for me.