News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by erentz on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:16PM (#16851348)
One of the things the NYC region could do is unify operations and planning of NJ transit, LIRR, and Metro North into one through running network with a tunnel from GCT south with two more Manhattan stops then across the Hudson to another main station where the Hoboken terminal is (a bit more inland likely). Overtime the systems and fleets can merge.

Instead you get this absurd patchwork of expensive stand alone projects, ARC, the huge building over of of a cap on the LIRR Hudson railyards which required maybe a billion in spending. Talks about a new Penn Station. Etc.

As a plus you reduce the demand on the existing Penn tunnels used by Amtrak.

If this had all be planned as one system the money already spent or being proposed to be spent on these disparate/disconnected things could provide do wonders.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by Nav_Panel on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:26PM (#16851449)
>unify operations and planning of NJ transit, LIRR, and Metro North

Everyone agrees but insiders who know about the current state of the transit organizations consider this suggestion so absurd as to write an April Fools post[1] about it.

1: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/04/01/new-york-area-...

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by JumpCrisscross on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:50PM (#16851650)
> insiders who know about the current state of the transit organizations consider this suggestion so absurd as to write an April Fools post

The difficulty comes down to regional politics. The regional rail systems (LIRR, Metro-North and NJTR) were set up to give those on Long Island, upstate/in Connecticut and in New Jersey, respectively, a dedicated regional transit authority. A politician attempting to unify operations would need to convince those voters should risk giving up their regional transit control.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by erentz on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:13PM (#16852288)
Oh that’s golden, thanks for sharing. :-)
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by officialchicken on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:44PM (#16851611)
> As a plus you reduce the demand on the existing Penn tunnels used by Amtrak.

Amtrak has owned and operated the HRT (tunnels built in 1905) since 1976 when it took over the NEC from the failing Penn lines in the early 70's. It's the busiest segment of track (Interlock-A) in the world and out of the busiest train station in the world (NYP).

You could reduce demand on the existing tunnels by building ARC.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by jseliger on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:31PM (#16851487)
An excellent point. This is also congruent: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/1/14112776/ne....

Oddly, the GAO effort to figure out why infrastructure costs so much isn't in the budget, last time I checked: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/24/15681560/g...

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by InclinedPlane on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @12:00AM (#16855354)
Seriously. I visited NYC last year and spent a few days hanging out with some friends out on Long Island. Traveling on LIRR is a very unfriendly process for anyone who doesn't do it basically every weekday and integrating LIRR travel with subway travel can be a non-trivial optimization problem. It's not super complicated once you get the hang of it, but otherwise it is just not obvious where you can get on and off trains, where the trains go and when, etc.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by btown on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:31PM (#16851494)
> GCT south then across the Hudson to... Hoboken

Effectively the PATH & 4/5 train already do this with a transfer at Fulton Street. And while unifying the system may look good on paper, I'd hate for the PATH to descend to the MTA's low standards of reliability and cleanliness. Better part of the system work well than all of it work poorly.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by biscuitt on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:37PM (#16853508)
I'm always amazed at how clean the Path train and stations are especially when transferring onto them from the subway. It's a completely different experience
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by JumpCrisscross on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:20PM (#16851390)
> One of the things the NYC region could do is unify operations and planning of NJ transit, LIRR, and Metro North into one through running network

How would this address the principal problem identified in the article, the rising cost per mile of building new track?

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by erentz on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:24PM (#16851436)
That unfortunately is an American centric problem, it’s particularly bad in NY but other parts of the country aren’t immune to it either. There’s a lot written about that elsewhere.

My point in this instance is that even at the inflated construction costs you could still accomplish a lot more with better planning and linking these systems up. A tunnel and new stops in manhatten connecting them is going to accomplish a lot more for the same price as capping a huge rail yard. Building new tunnels that terminate three separate systems in different locations. And building a new Penn station.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by wil421 on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:24PM (#16851431)
Does any cross state combined public transit effort even exist in the US? Maybe DC, I am not familiar with Washington DC.

It’s a nightmare in my city just between neighboring counties. Only 2 counties were included in the initial build out of public trains and not any significant expansion since. The other counties vehemently reject any such proposals. One county is going through expansion talks again but the train will only go one stop to their bus hub. I bet they will end up rejecting all of it.

NIMBYism isn’t very strong in my city but it certainly is regarding public transport, trains especially.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by jcranmer on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:41PM (#16851586)
There's not a lot of places in the country with "true" interstate integrated transit needs. Places like Chicago have far suburbs and exurbs within the commute shed in other states but are still generally within state. Even cities like St. Louis generally have a clear dominant locus in one state, which limits the ability of the other state(s) to play off the other state.

The general exceptions to this rule are Kansas City and Washington, DC, where the workplace loci are truly distributed among multiple jurisdictions so that no one state is dominant. In DC, the standard subway (WMATA) runs across all three jurisdictions, although there is some amount of political football over funding. The commuter rail systems are not integrated, but that is largely due to limited capacity over the Long Bridge. (MARC, the Maryland system, is participating in the Long Bridge replacement project in part because they do intend to extend service to Alexandria once there's capacity to do so).

NYC is a truly special case because it's simply so massive. In terms of geographical boundaries, there are roughly three natural independent sheds: trans-Hudson, trans-East, and trans-Harlem rivers. Each of these sheds is massive enough to let each of the three commuter systems that focus on their own sheds to not have to coordinate. These sheds also happen to largely coincide with different states: NJ is trans-Hudson, NY (or, rather, Long Island) is trans-East, and CT (as well as parts of NY) is trans-Harlem.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by c5karl on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:34PM (#16852486)
Even in DC, there is a lot of public transit not managed by WMATA. While WMATA runs the MetroBus system, each jurisdiction also has its own bus system beyond that, in part because none of the jurisdictions wants to have to negotiate with all their neighbors to make service changes to routes that start and end within their own borders.

DC's MetroRail system has a very large share of rides that begin in one jurisdiction and end in another, so it makes a lot of sense for it all to be managed centrally by WMATA. But I suspect there aren't a lot of commuter train rides that begin in Connecticut and end in Suffolk County (or that start in Baltimore and end in Prince William County). Given that, just how would a MetroNorth/LIRR merger help riders?

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by jcranmer on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:52PM (#16852648)
The main benefit from the proposed merger would be solving issues with Penn Station: you could eliminate some of the separate concourses, easing overcrowding; by through-running trains, you could also increase the number of trains serviced without having to build an expensive new station.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by apaprocki on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:47PM (#16851626)
Sure, agencies are created whenever multiple states need to share two sides of a public transit solution (or bridges, tunnels, etc.). e.g., Port Authority of NY & NJ, PATH, Delaware River Port Authority (PA & NJ), etc.. they are found virtually everywhere where cities exist near borders.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by wil421 on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:26PM (#16851927)
I should have clarified. I was talking about public transport specifally for light rail. The article was about subways specifically.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by kevin_thibedeau on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:25PM (#16853401)
NJ Transit and SEPTA share the link between Trenton and Philadelphia. Metro-North and NJ Transit also have shared service into upstate regions of New York on two lines.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by officialchicken on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:33PM (#16851507)
> Does any cross state combined public transit effort even exist in the US?

Yes, AMTRAK [0]

[0] https://history.amtrak.com/amtraks-history/historic-timeline

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by wil421 on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:23PM (#16851912)
Amtrak is the federal government. I am talking about one states public rail system connecting with another states rail system. New York to New Jersey was given as an example in the parent post.

Amtrak is great for vacations or other travel but I don’t thinks its use case is daily commuters. At least it’s not the use case for the majority of the US.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by tspike on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:33PM (#16851991)
The Amtrak Cascades line is actually state owned and operated: http://www.amtrakcascades.com/about One example, at least!
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by danvasquez29 on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:43PM (#16851605)
Chicago's Regional Transit Authority operates the Metra which spreads into northern Indiana and Southern Wisconsin
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by kevindong on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:04PM (#16851765)
> Metra which spreads into northern Indiana

You're thinking of the South Shore Line [0], which is entirely independent of Metra [1] and the RTA.

> and Southern Wisconsin

Metra has just one stop on one line in Wisconsin (Kenosha on the Union Pacific North line).

[0]: http://www.mysouthshoreline.com/

[1]: https://metrarail.com/maps-schedules/system-map

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by AskewEgret on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:04PM (#16852757)
You are correct, but the planned extension of the CTA Red Line includes a new station that is shared with the South Shore, creating a brand-new connection ability that never existed before. The planning for the new Union Station to McCormick Place link involves connecting the CTA, Metra and South Shore lines.

If you are standing in downtown Chicago, you can jump onto a train and conveniently go to O'Hare International (Blue Line CTA), Midway International (Orange Line CTA), Milwaukee International (Amtrak), and South Bend Regional (South Shore). South Bend has daily non-stops to NYC so I'm not sure why it's called a regional airport, but, well, there you go.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by kevindong on Monday April 16, 2018 @11:41PM (#16855286)
I'm confused by what possible efficiencies can be generated by connecting the Red Line and the South Shore line. I presume that most riders on the SS line are commuting to work in or near the Loop. The SS line is undoubtedly faster than the Red Line. Furthermore, there's already Metra lines in existence around the area of the proposed Red Line extension.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what good a Union Station to McCormick Place link would do. Union Station is already within a 20 minute walk to every single CTA/Metra/SS line. Furthermore no one really lives/works near McCormick Place. It's primarily a convention center.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by logfromblammo on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:49PM (#16853139)
It has an express, and it still counts.

Although it really sucks when someone misses the correct train and you have to drive to Winthrop Harbor to pick them up.

Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by closeparen on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:46PM (#16852090)
Commuter rail ought to optimize for seating and ride comfort on long journeys with infrequent stops. Subways ought to optimize for capacity and efficiency on short, mostly standing-room trips within densely populated areas. Unification with subway rolling stock would be awful for commuter rail riders’ comfort and willingness to use the system. Unification with commuter rail rolling stock would be awful for subway crowding.
Re:Why New York City Stopped Building Subways by erentz on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:09PM (#16852252)
No one is suggesting unifying subways and commuter rail. Note that LIRR, Metro North, and NJ Transit are all commuter rail. (FWIW commuter rail is a bad term we use here in the states - something like “regional” rail would make more sense.)