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Re:Time to rebuild the web? by kingnight on Monday April 16, 2018 @10:14AM (#16849115)
How does a mobile phone sync dats? The main drawback I see currently with beaker is their is no mobile version (for iPhone)
Re:Time to rebuild the web? by staticvar on Monday April 16, 2018 @11:17AM (#16849535)
I've been helping to develop Bunsen browser for Android but we don't have an iPhone build yet. The hard part is just building it with nodejs all wired up correctly for iOS, but there are tools for that. We just don't have the volunteer working on it yet.
Re:Time to rebuild the web? by api on Monday April 16, 2018 @10:39AM (#16849267)
Mobile as a whole is an unsolved problem for decentralized systems. The mobile revolution is and has been by far the most powerful driver of centralization in the last 10-15 years.

Mobile devices are slower, have less memory, and must consume less power than desktop, laptop, or server devices. To achieve good battery life they really need to be in an almost-off state most of the time. Add to this the fact that cellular data plans limit bandwidth and cellular networks are a lot slower than most land-line networks and you also have to be very efficient with the use of bandwidth.

This means that decentralized systems that rely on peer to peer participatory propagation of data or distributed compute just don't work well on mobile. Anything with P2P data propagation will use too much data plan and run the radio too much, shortening battery life, while anything with distributed compute will destroy battery life and turn your phone into a pocket hand warmer.

Mobile devices really are thin clients. I call them "dumb terminals for the cloud." Since the cloud is mainframe 2.0, mobile devices are the "glass TTY" (e.g. VT100) 2.0.

The best solution is probably not to fight the nature of mobile devices as thin clients but to tether them to stationary devices. But which stationary devices? Laptops are themselves mobile and are off half the time, and most people (myself included) no longer own desktops. I have a personal server but I'm a geek and a huge minority. Most people just do not own an always-on device.

Farming this out to random always-on devices is a security nightmare or at best is no better than the vertically integrated silo-ed cloud.

I see only three solutions:

(1) Create a niche for a personal always-on server type device and successfully market one to the end user. It would have to be open enough to allow the server side of 'apps' to be installed. Many have tried to do this but nothing has caught on.

(2) Create a mobile device that's designed to be a "real computer." With 5G coming the bandwidth for this might be on the way, but you'd also have to contend with battery life and heat dissipation. One avenue would be to split the CPU in two: a high-power burstable CPU and a low-power slow always-on CPU. Require the always-on parts of decentralized services to run there and as a result to be very optimized. The problem is that a mass-market mobile device is a huge undertaking. Another route might be to sell a snap-on case that carries an extra battery and also includes a mini-server CPU, RAM, storage, etc. This would make your phone a bit bulkier but if there are benefits / killer apps it could catch on.

(3) Solve the security problems inherent in appointing random stationary nodes to serve random mobile devices. This would probably involve a major innovation like fast scalable fully homomorphic encrypted virtual machines or really tough security enclave processors.

Re:Time to rebuild the web? by danyork on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:12PM (#16852282)
Very good analysis. I found myself thinking about this phrase:

> The mobile revolution is and has been by far the most powerful driver of centralization in the last 10-15 years.

Many of us who were active users of Skype in its earlier days (mid-2000s) might remember Skype's first attempt at a mobile client. They took all the distributed P2P goodness of the desktop client and tried to have that run on the mobile environment.

The result was sadly a smartphone app that was slow and rapidly drained your battery. For those of us with many Skype group chats open, the mobile client was basically unusable.

So Microsoft/Skype had to go back and rethink the mobile client. To your points in your reply... they made it a "thin client" with all the power in the centralized servers.

As they did that, it seemed from the outside that they determined over time that maintaining a desktop P2P source code and a mobile thin-client/server source code didn't make sense. And so ultimately the desktop P2P was abandoned and everything became client/server. (Which is the case now - Skype on your desktop is basically a wrapper for a web client.)

And so... the quest for a good mobile user experience wound up being one of the drivers for centralizing one of the original decentralized P2P apps. [1]

Good analysis!

[1] Yes, there were, I'm sure, many other contributing factors, including the issues around the supernodes that led to one of the major outages. And yes, I do realize that Skype, even its earliest form was NOT a completely-decentralized communications app. They did have a centralized mechanism for logins / authentication and also for PSTN gateways and other services.

Re:Time to rebuild the web? by stev0lution on Monday April 16, 2018 @01:51PM (#16851115)
I really enjoy your thinking.. Do you have some kind of blog where I can follow you? :D As you already mentioned, contributing whatever resources you consume is relatively unreasonable on mobile devices, because it would pretty much double data and battery usage. So while there is most likely some kind of overhead connected to the third solution you suggested, I still think it is probably the easiest one because it doesn't require any new specialised hardware.

Maybe regulation can solve some of the problems with the current systems, but the idealist in me really wants to see provably transparent (open source) and secure solutions which don't require trust in the hardware so we can still make use of modern, efficient (federated) server farms without having to giving up control over our data.

Re:Time to rebuild the web? by api on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:08PM (#16851274)
My seldom-updated personal site is http://adamierymenko.com/

It's actually worse than doubling. The nature of distributed systems means that participating in resources consumed normally triples resource consumption at least. I'm not aware of any approach to decentralization of services like Facebook, Twitter, etc. that would merely double it.

Your typical desktop or laptop has a lot of resources to spare. Your typical mobile device has none. Mobile promotes a client/server mainframe/dumb-term architecture for fundamental technical reasons.

Re:Time to rebuild the web? by staticvar on Monday April 16, 2018 @11:20AM (#16849564)
We would love for someone to test these theories using Bunsen Browser! Getting some solid metrics would go a long way to starting to solve any problems that might be there. Theoretically it shouldn't be eating up much bandwidth because every device visiting a Dat Archive helps contribute to the network.
Re:Time to rebuild the web? by noyesno on Monday April 16, 2018 @11:14AM (#16849515)
Mobile devices could certainly be used to host such services /when they are being charged/. In practice most of us charge our devices during the night and, like cheap night-time electricity, we could have overnight mobile seeding. ... and it is always night-time somewhere in the world.
Re:Time to rebuild the web? by bubbleRefuge on Monday April 16, 2018 @11:02AM (#16849425)
For the battery problem, what about the proliferation of wireless charging ?
Re:Time to rebuild the web? by paulryanrogers on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:50PM (#16852110)
Most families have an Internet router which could help there
Re:Time to rebuild the web? by api on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:52PM (#16852128)
Yes, the personal router is a logical spot to put an always-on converged router/server device. Unfortunately nobody's done it well enough yet. It's an area that's ripe for an "iPhone moment."

The other problem is that we're in an era where it's very hard to market anything if you're not Google, Amazon, or Apple, and those firms have negative interest in promoting any form of decentralization.