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Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by goatlover on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @12:34PM (#16756357)
They didn't step up to Stalin and Mao. Hitler was because of alliance with Britain and the Japanese attack, not because of how awful the Nazis regime was. The US for the most part didn't want to get dragged back into another European conflict. Hitler was bad, yes. But what happened in Germany was rooted in the outcome of WW1, which was rooted in all the alliances and what not proceeding it, which was rooting in yet prior conflicts. A lot of which had to do with the colonial powers fighting over how to divide up the world, or because of religious differences.

A pacifist might say Hitler, Stalin and Mao are just symptoms of the deeper problem, which is the willingness of human beings to engage in violent conflicts just because somebody tells them to.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by ixtli on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @12:41PM (#16756437)
It's amazing the degree to which people are ignorant of what you've said here and imagine the US was motivated by ideology.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by fastball on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @12:52PM (#16756545)
The US was motivated by ideology.

Why was the US an ally of GB/France/etc and not Germany/Italy? Contrary to your belief, greed can be ideological -- striving for global free trade is an example of this.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by ixtli on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:55PM (#16757190)
I'll admit I was modifying what I would have said IRL for this medium. You are absolutely right: one of the most brilliant victories of so-called "neoliberal" capitalism is how it's utterly convinced people that it represents human nature. That it's not ideological. What I meant by my comment was that "saving the world from the evil of global Fascism" was a post-hoc rationalization, not what motivated America to join the war years after it had begun.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by criley2 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @02:43PM (#16757650)
FYI: I said I know why my grandfather fought, NOT WHY his commander in chief ordered him to fight.

That's a big difference, and one you chose not to respect.

His CiC may not have agreed, but my grandfather told me, to my face, that he fought fascism and was proud to do so.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by ixtli on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @03:38PM (#16758190)
I'd like to be clear that I know and love that the soldiers and everyone else who fought fascism did so to defeat fascism: it's very possible that I wouldn't be commenting today had your grandfather not made that decision. That's not what i meant to imply here.

EDIT: To make clear what I meant, re: your comment: the state-building narrative the US has adopted substitutes the righteous struggle of people like your grandfather in order to avoid acknowledging, among many things, the reluctance to participate in world affairs and the frankly brazen pro-Nazi stances of many in the american public and the government at the time.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:28PM (#16756924)
> The US was motivated by ideology.

Well, certainly, the Roosevelt Administration was, but they were (prior to Pearl Harbor) also forced to maintain an outward pretense of neutrality while backing the Allies, because a large part of the rest of the US was also motivated by ideology...to either be sympathetic to the Axis Powers (one large, well-bankrolled faction) or to be opposed to intervention (another large, well-bankrolled faction, that often worked together with the preceding one against any interventionist policy.)

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by mijamo on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:15PM (#16756809)
Then why wasn't the US in the war from the beginning? Did it take 2 years to discover that Hitler was bad?
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by Anon1096 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:44PM (#16757086)
The US was always on the allied side, through funding and supplies. The whole reason the Lusitania was sunk was because the US was sending arms to support the Allied war effort, even if it wasn't officially declared. Even if it wasn't until Pearl Harbor that the US joined the war officially, there is little doubt what side Roosevelt and much of the American people wanted to win.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by scarmig on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @04:06PM (#16758494)
...the Lusitania was two decades before Hitler even came to power.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by Anon1096 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @05:21PM (#16759258)
You're right. I messed up WWI vs WWII for a second there. The rest of the comment stands though that the US provides major aid to the Allied powers.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by omegaworks on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @02:32PM (#16757545)
> The US was always on the allied side, through funding and supplies.

Businesses in the US were serving both sides of the conflict.

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by Nimitz14 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @03:57PM (#16758411)
Holy cow do I feel bad for the people that grow up with education system of your country. Look up Lend Lease.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by omegaworks on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @05:59PM (#16759620)
Lend-lease was enacted March 11, 1941. IBM was cataloguing religious and other minorities for the Nazis in the 30s. [1]

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust#cite_ref...

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by jcranmer on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @02:22PM (#16757460)
The US in the early 20th century had a very strong non-interventionist policy, at least vis-a-vis Europe (Latin America was a different story). The general standpoint was "we don't want to get involved with whatever mess is going on in Europe." Note that this strain was so strong that one Congresswoman actually refused to vote for war even after Pearl Harbor.

However, by 1940, it was very clear that the US was going to get dragged in anyways, and it would serve the US interests first to start preparing for war before it starts (note that the draft was instituted over a year before Pearl Harbor). Moreover, the US was neutral only in name: various acts passed more or less saying that the US would give aid to anybody so long as they were British or French. (Originally, it was cash-and-carry, but when Britain exhausted its cash reserves, it became Lend-Lease instead).

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by pm90 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @04:43PM (#16758860)
A correction to your otherwise correct comment: Lend-Lease was extended to the Soviets as well (and perhaps equally if not much larger than to the Franco-British military).
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by jcranmer on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:24PM (#16760281)
Lend-lease was the last of the neutrality gimmicks, and was the first one that really applied to the Soviets--mere weeks before the US entered the war proper and lend-lease became the vehicle for general military and logistical aid to all Allies.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by fastball on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:44PM (#16757081)
It took 2 years for a country that values personal freedoms and international free trade/security to decide that the Axis powers winning the war would be bad for both.

Also, the US formally joined the war in 1941, but were providing material support to the Allies and otherwise prepping before then.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by pfarnsworth on Thursday April 05, 2018 @12:10AM (#16761693)
No one knew about the death camps until basically the end of the European stage of WWII.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by will4274 on Sunday April 08, 2018 @11:46AM (#16786619)
> No one

The intelligence services knew. The general public didn't.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by olavk on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:27PM (#16756918)
Germany declared war on the US, not the other way around.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by fastball on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:41PM (#16757052)
I didn't say the US did?
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by chrisseaton on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:56PM (#16757204)
Well you asked why wasn't the US allied to Germany in the war. Asking that makes it sound like you weren't aware that Germany declared war on the US, because that's a pretty obvious reason for the US not to be allied to Germany.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by fastball on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @02:17PM (#16757401)
The US was allied with the "Allies" before the US become formally involved in the war. They were already providing material aid to Britain/France before Pearl Harbor / war declared by Germany. I'm definitely not the one who is "unaware" of the key details in this discussion.

The US provided support to the side they ideologically agreed with -- it wasn't just a case of "Germany randomly declares war on the US".

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by olavk on Thursday April 05, 2018 @02:17AM (#16762290)
The US also provided support (lend-lease) to the USSR.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by jsperson on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @01:02PM (#16756662)
Of course they did. It wasn't always open warfare nor does it have to be. The simple fact that the United States and her allies had a large capable military fixed a line on the map that held for 50 years until the Soviet block self-destructed. As for Mao, I'm pretty sure that having the US as a buddy kept Taiwan free as well as secured South Korea and provided a lot of security to Japan and the Philippines. The UK did the same for Hong Kong.

It's not correct to say that we have to attack a country/dictator in order to stand up to them.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by throwaway84742 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @06:12PM (#16759736)
But they did tho. At least to Stalin. Had they not, all of Europe would now be Soviet Union. This is also why Japan was nuked — to ensure compliance, and create better leverage in negotiations. Otherwise the red army could just continue as far as it wished to go and take over the rest of Europe.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by robkop on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:03PM (#16760150)
I would strongly argue that the motivation for nukeing Japan was not to give the Soviets an impression but to ensure that American troops didn't have to land on hostile beaches on the Japanese mainland. The decision was mainly made to save American lives by forcing a Japanese surrender
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by hollerith on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @08:34PM (#16760713)
There's a depressingly large number of authors who say that, but the Japanese islands have little in the way of natural resources except farmland and a good climate for growing things.

The whole reason Japan started their program of military expansion in the first place was to guarantee access to natural resource, e.g., petroleum, needed by their industry.

By 1943 Japan was facing chronic shortages of petroleum products, rubber and other essential supplies because of interdiction by the US Navy's "Silent Service" (submarine force). And that was before Japan lost most of her navy, most of her large transport ships (by 1945 Japan was reduced to using mostly small wooden transport ships) the Phillipines, Iwo Jima and Okinawa (which while in Japanese hands could be used to operate aircraft to give Japanese shipping some protection from the US Navy).

It is unlikely that Japan could have done much more than feed itself after 1945.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by throwaway84742 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:06PM (#16760178)
The Emperor was weeks away from capitulating on his own, and Soviets were invading the place already. Nuking Japan was mostly to tell Stalin he can’t win. Japan capitulating sooner was a nice side effect.
Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by criley2 on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @02:54PM (#16757748)
Oh, the US didn't meet the USSR in Berlin, stop the westward movement of the Soviet advance, saving dozens of countries from communism?

My bad, I totally forgot that the Cold War never happened and that the soldiers of WW2 didn't form a hard border in Berlin that they were not friendly over.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by geofft on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @05:03PM (#16759063)
> the US didn't meet the USSR in Berlin

As far as I know, no? The US was quite far from Berlin by the end of the war, and did not engage the USSR in battle for territorial control of Germany.

> saving dozens of countries from communism?

Surely not "dozens", but was there even one? The other Allies essentially handed Poland over to Stalin.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by djrogers on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @05:43PM (#16759469)
>> the US didn't meet the USSR in Berlin >As far as I know, no? The US was quite far from Berlin by the end of the war, and did not engage the USSR in battle for territorial control of Germany.

I believe GP was referring to a few years later, when the Berlin airlift broke the Soviet blockade of West Berlin - a clear attempt by the Soviet Union to expand their spehere of control to West Berlin and eventually West Germany as a whole.

Re:Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. P... by darawk on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @07:04PM (#16760160)
And yet, had all of the engineers in the US refused to participate in military work, guess who'd be running the world right now just the same? The world actually exists and the choices people make in it have real consequences. Not participating in military technology is an unbelievably childish option. If you are at all serious about the ethics of this, you have to choose to support the entity you trust the most. For me, that's the US. Feel free to make your own choices, though.