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Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by lhorie on Monday April 02, 2018 @04:51PM (#16739151)
How's this different than going back to PowerPC architecture? When they switched to Intel, I recall there being a lot of talk of benefits to running on the same chips as everyone else.

From what I've been hearing lately about Apple, the impression I keep getting is that Apple doesn't think of Mac as a product with a specific target market, but more as a sort of just-a-really-really-big-ipad. The closed garden approach worked well with iOS, where for the most part people just play throwaway games, but I really don't see that being a viable underlying philosophy for laptops, where interop with digital plumbing is important.

Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by npunt on Monday April 02, 2018 @04:59PM (#16739222)
Apple is in a much different state now. Making your own chip requires significant resources, and before they didn't have the leverage nor talent to get the chips they wanted built. Now, they have a trillion dollar product (iPhone) and a mature chip development team that many consider the best in the industry, and they can throw tons of money at the problem.

The benefit of running the same chips as everyone else was about leveraging the investment of other products into the Intel architecture. Now they're doing that, just with their own chips.

Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by chipotle_coyote on Monday April 02, 2018 @09:35PM (#16741179)
From what I've been hearing lately about Apple, the impression I keep getting is that Apple doesn't think of Mac as a product with a specific target market, but more as a sort of just-a-really-really-big-ipad.

As a long-time Mac user who's still basically happy with the product, this is what worries me the most long-term. YMMV, different strokes, go in peace with Ubuntu, but for me personally, macOS has been my favorite desktop Unix, hands-down, for about fifteen years. There's nothing that I want to do on even a semi-regular basis that I can't do, and a lot that would require, well, heavy adjusting if I moved to Linux. (Yes, I've used Linux within the last couple of years.)

I also love iOS and the iPad, but it's not a general computing platform; it's a computing appliance. It's very good at what it does, but by design it's difficult-to-impossible to do things on it that Apple doesn't want you to in ways that aren't true for macOS. (I'm sorry to those of you who had to disable SIP to recompile your own version of Apache, or who are infuriated you can't replace Finder with ratpoison, but you know that's not what I'm talking about here, right?) If "Project Marzipan" is about creating a new UIKit/AppKit hybrid that allows developers to create codebases that run on both iOS and macOS, that's already a little worrisome; if it's about "letting iOS apps run on macOS," as some of Gurman's reporting has it, that's a lot worrisome. I have a lot of apps that exist for both macOS and iOS, and in every single case, the macOS version is more capable. And iOS's "sandbox everything" model--and, I suspect, attitudes it engenders--make every app feel like an island not just in terms of data but in terms of functionality: there's much less of the "learn the basics of one app, learn them all" feeling that makes macOS, well, macOS.

If the Mac line moves to Apple's A-series chips, that's...not necessarily bad, but if it's being done in conjunction with sweeping software changes, it makes me extremely uneasy about the line's future in a way that even the Touch Bar doesn't (and trust me, I do not take the Touch Bar as a good sign). I'm not planning to switch platforms any time soon, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should buy an inexpensive Linux-compatible laptop so I can, you know, practice. Just in case.

Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by whywhywhywhy on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @11:41AM (#16745738)
I'm not too worried about Marzipan in the short term, I'm thinking the goal of that project might be to get devs who make pro apps on the mac side work on a codebase that they could easily port over to the iPad side seen as the iPad Pro is seriously lacking in app support compared to the Mac, because it's unprofitable to maintain them.

In the long term this is a play to push Cook's iPad Pro post-pc idea, yet again...

Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by snowwrestler on Monday April 02, 2018 @06:47PM (#16740171)
> When they switched to Intel, I recall there being a lot of talk of benefits to running on the same chips as everyone else.

They switched to Intel first and foremost because PowerPC was not going to get them the performance/power ratio that they wanted. It was holding them back in laptops. For example, Apple never shipped a laptop with a G5 chip because it took so much damn power to run a G5. Intel was basically their only option.

A secondary benefit, which they marketed heavily, was the opportunity to boot your machine natively into Windows. They thought this would help overcome the reluctance of "switchers" who were worried that they would miss something about Windows.

These days, the role of the OS as a gatekeeper is basically gone. There's greater diversity in client OS (Windows, macOS, Linux, ChromeOS, iOS, Android, etc.) and most anything important is available through a browser or a native app.

And Intel is no longer their only option. They've proven they can run big businesses making their own chips.

I do wonder how this will affect VM performance on Macs though. I don't see how it can be maintained, unless Apple chips are so much faster than Intel that they can absorb the translation overhead.

Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by lhorie on Monday April 02, 2018 @07:05PM (#16740260)
> most anything important is available through a browser or a native app

I guess that depends on what people think is "important". If by that you mean Facebook and Youtube, sure. But if we mean things like compilers, imho it would be a net loss if the only way to compile anything for any Apple OS was through Xcode/Swift.

Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by yasth on Monday April 02, 2018 @07:13PM (#16740310)
OS as a gatekeeper is still present in a lot of corporate stuff. You'd be amazed the number of people who are still running IE because of one reporting package or what not.

That said there is no reason in 2020 they couldn't dual boot to MS's Windows ARM which is already shipping supports 32 bit x86 apps and should be polished enough to do legacy to the limited degree most users need.

I have to say this isn't how I expected Intel to go down. It is basically microcomputers killing minicomputers all over again (which was before my time, TBH).

Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by imtringued on Monday April 02, 2018 @09:59PM (#16741297)
The x86 emulation is far from reliable. It's far more likely that corporations just get the intel laptop because processors just are simply just a small fraction of the total price of a laptop. When you're buying a dell laptop that costs $1300 then spending another $200 for the intel laptop is a drop in the bucket.
Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by no_wizard on Monday April 02, 2018 @10:01PM (#16741303)
Well, certainly I think a part of it was that they could unify on one Chip with the rest of the industry did provide some economies of scale advantages, though rumor has it that Apple has always paid a little bit more for its chips so they could guarantee certain things and dictate as such.

I believe the main driver though, as pointed out in this CNET article https://www.cnet.com/news/four-years-later-why-did-apple-dro... was that IBM could not deliver on a powerful enough powerpc chip that would also meet the other constraints, namely, at this time, one of the biggest markets Apple had was the notebook market, and its sales there were exploding. IBM was unable to deliver a lower thermal envelope for its portable chipsets on top of performance issues.

I think this more than anything else pushed that reality.

Re:Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Repla... by Tijdreiziger on Monday April 02, 2018 @05:44PM (#16739675)
It doesn't need to be a closed garden. Look at what Microsoft is doing with x86 emulation on ARM.