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Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by cs702 on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:02PM (#16667896)
In the blink of an eye, it seems, we have gone from a world in which collecting, storing, and using personal data for financial gain was largely viewed as a harmless activity, to a world in which doing those same things will be increasingly controlled and regulated, scrutinized, criticized, investigated, fined, and ultimately, I suspect, criminalized.
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pjc50 on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:15PM (#16667956)
Years ago Bruce Schneier said that nothing would happen until there was the privacy equivalent of the Exxon Valdez / Bhopal / Chernobyl; a leak high profile and toxic enough to irrevocably change public opinion. Maybe this is that trigger event.

The EU was ahead on this, adopting data protection rules from 1995, before even the first dotcom boom. I believe it's a legacy of fear of the Stasi driving opposition to surveillance.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by nolok on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:46PM (#16668133)
In France we always had strong laws too (we basically adapted our super old laws for "files and info on paper" to "files and info on paper on a computer"), in decent part because Vichy.

Technically I could already ten years ago ask any company to show me every file they had on me, allow me to edit, and ask them to delete, and they had to comply. But the era on gigantic worldwide corp made this much harder to enforce, and thus much harder for user to enjoy their rights. I'm glad the EU moved forward on standardisation and enforcement at EU level.

No more "the data you refer to is in Ireland and owned by an Irish company that doesn't operate in France !" and crap like that.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by 46886532558 on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:37PM (#16668080)
Also the CCC and European hacker culture. I think in the US hacker culture is different and less political, because of the FBI suffocating its roots early on, and a general fear of leftist politics. In europe, and Germany in particular, the CCC and close structures have been really important correctives since before the internet. And they are like reeeally left wing anticapitalist idealists and antiauthoritarians, which plays part to their motivation.
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by YorkshireSeason on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:46PM (#16668138)

    they are like reeeally left wing 
The historical record of the extreme left is extremely pro-state, pro surveillance. Indeed, the Marxist corrective to freewheeling capitalism was a strong socialist state (to cover the period before communism emerges and the state withers away) [1]. Many modern surveillance techniques were pioneered or refined by the likes of the OGPU [2], the NKVD [3] and their equivalents in satellite states like the Stasi [4] in the GDR, or the secret police in China (sorry I have no good reference). Note that both Wilhelm Zaisser [5](founder of the Stasi) and Kang Sheng [6] (founder of China's secret police) had worked in Moscow under Stalin in the security services.

This is historically very well documented, but seems to be somehow unpalatable ...

[1] https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_State_Political_Director...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Zaisser

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_Sheng

Edit: replaced "left" by "extreme left" for additional clarity.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by 46886532558 on Sunday March 25, 2018 @01:33PM (#16673278)
> fear of leftist politics...

What I said, huh?! Maybe before you throw in the Stasi Wikipedia article, you should check out the CCC's. They advocate for a strong state regulations, strong democratic structures and freedom of the individual, including privacy. Transparency for the state, privacy for the individual. Large parts of their member base are anticapitalists and anarchists, minding the collective welfare, so I figured from an American perspective that's quite far left.

You won't find advertisement or any commercial interests on their very large conferences, which are completely organized and managed by volunteers. On every level. There is absolutely no tolerance for right wing ideas, police or military.

That's why I think their political background here is important, they always been activists advocating for everyone's welfare and rights. Something rather unusual for non left wing politics.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pjc50 on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:53PM (#16668177)
Not so much unpalatable as irrelevant? Using a descriptor like "left wing" to ignore people's actual politics and go straight to accusing them of being Stalinists?
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by YorkshireSeason on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:14PM (#16668305)
I was clearly referring to 46886532558's "reeeally left wing", i.e. extreme left.

It is historically accurate to identify the extreme left with the ComIntern, i.e. the Soviet communist party, ruled during his lifetime by Stalin. Almost all communist parties were in the mould designed by Lenin, and refined by Stalin.

Even today, socialist / communist parties operate using the Leninist style of organisation, e.g. in the UK the SWP or RS21.

It is useful to know this, just as it's useful to know that Cambridge Analytica was owned by a company whose board is full of UK military/security-service types [1].

[1] http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/03/20/scl-a-very-british-c...

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pyjammas on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:19PM (#16668330)
> It is historically accurate to identify the extreme left with the ComIntern, i.e. the Soviet communist party, ruled during his lifetime by Stalin.

No, it is absolutely not.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by YorkshireSeason on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:31PM (#16668403)
I invite you to defend your claim.

Start by asking yourself which non-fringe socialist/communist party was not using the Leninist model of organisation, and which was not a member of the ComIntern and its successors? Which did not receive funding and ideological schooling in the Soviet Union?

You have an uphill struggle against history against you.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pyjammas on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:56PM (#16668545)
How would you define 'fringe', and how does this not include views that are less pro-state?
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pjc50 on Saturday March 24, 2018 @05:23PM (#16669031)
Never mind that, how do you define "left"?

> non-fringe socialist/communist party was not using the Leninist model of organisation, and which was not a member of the ComIntern and its successors?

UK Labour party? Has everyone forgotten the Fabians?

The modern Green parties tend to be "left" but not necessarily inheriting from the Marxist tradition at all, generally post-dating WW2 (although this produces endless arguments about "watermelons"). Also modern left-wing parties of almost all colours are explicitly pro-human rights, which includes not only the right to privacy but the right to property!

Again, I'm not saying that there aren't some actual pro-Stalin "tankies" around, but it gets incredibly tedious having to defend everyone to the left of the Daily Mail from automatic charges of being a Stalinist. Congratulations on your dozen posts of derailing.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pyjammas on Sunday March 25, 2018 @12:34AM (#16670785)
Apologies if I misinterpret your comment, but aren't we arguing the same thing?
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by YorkshireSeason on Saturday March 24, 2018 @04:19PM (#16668677)
Fringe is clearly a vague predicate. One way of defining Fringe is via the number of followers that can be mobilised for political action. E.g. in the UK the Tories, and Labour are not fringe, but CISTA (Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol) is. In the Weimar Republic the KPD was not fringe, but the Socialist League was.
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by IAmEveryone on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:52PM (#16668171)
Here's a list of talks given at the CCCongress: https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2017/Fahrplan/events...

You don't have to go from "left-wing hacker collective" right to Stalin if there's data readily available on the actual subject being discussed.

(There should actually be a left-wing equivalent of Godwin's law. Maybe "There-Is-No-Godwin's law"?)

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by YorkshireSeason on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:02PM (#16668234)
I have commented not on the CCC but on user: 46886532558's original claim that being "reeeally left wing" is somehow a plausible reason for being anti-surveillance. This association is misleading, and I feel a responsibility to correct this historical mistake.

This correction is especially apt since Germany is still full of Stasi victims.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pyjammas on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:16PM (#16668317)
> The historical record of the left is extremely pro-state, pro surveillance

I think the problem with your comment is that you're flat-out misrepresenting the 'reeeally left wing'. There are plenty of 'leftist' movements that are just as opposed to 'the state' as they are to our corporate overlords. Arguing otherwise is either plain stupidity or intentional misrepresentation.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by YorkshireSeason on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:27PM (#16668383)
Railing against "the state" or "our corporate overlords" is not a mature political position, but merely unfocussed, reflection-free rage that gets tooled / channeled by political organisers and activists on the left and right, not to mention commercially exploited by the Facebooks of this world, whence Zuckerberg's "Dumb Fucks".
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pyjammas on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:40PM (#16668446)
> Railing against "the state" or "our corporate overlords" is not a mature political position

Why not? Historically anarchists played a mentionable role in this whole leftist thing.

EDIT: Also, could you elaborate on what you mean with 'a mature position'? I've found that kind of statement to be an effective but dishonest way to dismiss things.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by YorkshireSeason on Saturday March 24, 2018 @04:04PM (#16668586)
The anarchists, qua bombings, played a potent role in 19th, and early 20th century politics, but not a good one.

Politically, anarchists are really quite different from the socialist/communist tradition:

- Anarchists: reject the state

- Socialists/communists: reject capitalism

Naturally there could be overlap, and indeed there is a well-known tradition of anarcho-communism [1] which was especially potent in the Spanish Revolution of 1936 (note that there were bitter fights between anarchists and the Stalinists), but at the same time, it's difficult to reconcile the philo-capitalism of the libertarian wing of anarchism with the socialist tradition. Likewise, it's difficult to reconcile the philo-stateism of the socialist tradition with anarchism.

As to "mature": as a first approximation, I'd say, having a written, elaborate and communicable theory behind one's political actions, one that has survived multiple round of (friendly) critique. A mature political position includes reflection on the nature of political power, the shape of politial organisation, and political activism, and clear end goals with reasons why the desired end-goals are likely to come about. A mature political position also contains an understanding of other political positions, including those of one's political adversaries. An prime example of a mature political position is Marx. As an example of political immaturity, I'd point to myself when I was 19. I was nothing but an angry, raging young person, who railed against "the system", wanted to "stick it to The Man" and save the world. But I would not have been able to explain why, in way that I would have found plausible.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pyjammas on Saturday March 24, 2018 @04:15PM (#16668651)
Thank you for elaborating. Truly.

Is there any way I could continue this conversation via email or some other form of communication? I very much would like to pick your brain on some of this in a more personal form.

EDIT: my email is my username at gmail.com

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by IAmEveryone on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:20PM (#16668335)
Yeah–the comment didn't use talk about "reeally left-wing". It was "reeeally left wing anticapitalist idealists and antiauthoritarians".

The description uses "left wing" to help you conjure up the right mental image. Because "anticapitalist idealists and antiauthoritarians" would also describe buddhists and anarchists.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by maxander on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:40PM (#16668100)
And this is the climate while tremendously powerful corporations consider personal data collection to be a lynchpin of their moneymaking strategy (i.e., advertising.) Once internet advertising becomes broadly recognized as being not worth the cost, the demand for this data could fall off a cliff- what will policy look like then?

I consider it a reason to be optimistic.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by pyjammas on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:24PM (#16668365)
Too early to tell. It took almost a week to get a warrant to raid the CA offices, and while I do sort-of understand why, it's not promising. Furthermore, the Snowden revelations didn't have as much of an effect as I'd hoped, and once it 'blew over' it largely stopped being a public concern.

The same could happen here. Perhaps Zuck will be fired or we'll stop hearing about his (alleged) ambitions to enter politics, and that will be the end of it.

Let's not forget that CA is just one company. As long as Robert Mercer can continue doing what he does under various shell companies that are easy to register, we really haven't gotten anywhere unless regulations are implemented, and somehow applied globally.

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by bluesmonk on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:20PM (#16667984)
I just hope this does not backfire as new service models that require explicit consent (through ToS) from the user to allow monetizing user data in order to use such service.
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by lostlogin on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:18PM (#16667974)
It’s interesting how the collection of the same information by the likes of the five eyes is ok, yet for Facebook it isn’t.
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by beagle3 on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:27PM (#16668021)
It is interesting how it is ok for a country to jail people whose conduct it disapproves of, yet for any non-government entity it isn't. /s
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by roywiggins on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:38PM (#16668088)
At least in the US, there are legal prohibitions on government propaganda programs targeting Americans, whereas that's more or less entirely what Facebook is for. If the govt is caught running influence campaigns inside the US, there will be hell to pay- Congressional hearings, new legislation, etc.
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by lostlogin on Saturday March 24, 2018 @04:39PM (#16668794)
They have been caught. Or are you referring to something else?
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by xr4ti on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:28PM (#16668029)
Seems perfectly in line with restrictions on other dual use technologies, such as biological pathogens, nuclear fuels, etc.
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by olivermarks on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:37PM (#16668078)
The crackdown on free speech / Section 230 legislative changes is all part of this reining in of the 'information merchants'. https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230

Expect the launch of a shiny new 'social network' foundationed in 'safe' cryptocurrency commerce and led by an unknown fresh faced kid who 'invented it in his dorm room' and took no money from Russian offshore mob oligarchs...

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by xr4ti on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:06PM (#16668262)
Sorry I don't quite follow your comment. What does free speech have to do with unregulated, unconsented mass surveillance and violation of end user privacy?

That "new" social network already exists. It's called Snapchat. I think it's an open question whether social networks will even continue to exist in their current form. There was a time when people connected over Yahoo Chat and AIM...

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by olivermarks on Saturday March 24, 2018 @03:50PM (#16668504)
'What does free speech have to do with unregulated, unconsented mass surveillance and violation of end user privacy?'

the original legislation that enabled the modern web 2.0 platforms to exist was Section 230. Now that logic looks set to be struck down. https://www.law.com/therecorder/2018/03/21/senate-overwhelmi... I suggested a new more invasive platform will launch for deeper and more covert mass surveillance in light of GDPR in europe and now the end of the FB and Google gravy train when Section 230 changes makes the platform companies liable for what you say when you exercise your free speech in the USA...

Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by anonnel on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:48PM (#16668146)
That isn’t very hard to understand.
Re:Cambridge Analytica raided by UK data watchdog by the_cat_kittles on Saturday March 24, 2018 @02:31PM (#16668042)
news reports and reported public opinion seem to have shifted rapidly. but lots of people have been very vocal about how this is bad for a long time.