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Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by tardygrad on Thursday March 22, 2018 @08:30PM (#16654035)
While pointing fingers at Russia or impeaching Trump may be the options that feel good at the moment, I hope this is an opportunity to make sure something like this never happens again.

This is a pipe dream and I'm not sure this is even possible, but I think the best outcome of this is to pass legislation to try and ensure that:

1. Political campaigns don't engage in the type of behaviour in the first place, and

2. Make communications more public in general - official campaigns of people running for public office must operate under the light of greater public scrutiny

Democracy is only possible if accurate information is available, and the biggest takeaway for me in the last elections was just how many secrets all political players have.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by aphextron on Thursday March 22, 2018 @08:37PM (#16654061)
It all comes down to campaign finance. We need pblicly funded elections with absolutely no tolerance for private money, and a set equal amount for each major party candidate. Until Citizens United is overturned, and we get some kind of legislation like this, money will continue to dominate everything. And as long as that’s the case, there will always be unethical behavior because the incentives are too great.
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by orangecat on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:18PM (#16654275)
money will continue to dominate everything

The Clinton campaign raised and spent much more money than the Trump campaign: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidentia...

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by siidooloo on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:32PM (#16654347)
How does that contradict what the other person said?
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by bduerst on Thursday March 22, 2018 @10:49PM (#16654696)
It doesn't, it's just more whataboutism. It also ignores that one campaign was being assisted by a foreign power, the extent of which is still being investigated and not fully known.

The U.S. desperately needs campaign finance reform.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by orangecat on Thursday March 22, 2018 @11:11PM (#16654789)
It also ignores that one campaign was being assisted by a foreign power

To the extent that this is true, campaign finance laws couldn't have stopped it. If anything, restricting the ability of Americans to express their opinions makes foreign propaganda even stronger.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by bduerst on Thursday March 22, 2018 @11:18PM (#16654819)
>To the extent that this is true, campaign finance laws couldn't have stopped it

Again, the investigation is still underway and the full extent of the assistance is still unknown, meaning you can't assert that until the findings are released.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by thesis on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:06AM (#16655231)
You can't assert that they were assisted by a foreign government until the investigation is over either... since the extent was unknown aka maybe not at all.
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by espadrine on Friday March 23, 2018 @06:44AM (#16656663)
That is the first time I have heard this position, and I find it indefensible.

“You can't assert that kids died in this school shooting until the investigation is over, since the extent was unknown.”

It similarly does not work if parents are preparing the funerals.

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence released a report back in January 2017 decisively stating this:

> We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election.

> Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency.

> […] We [CIA, FBI, NSA] have high confidence in these judgments.

> We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment.

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by stordoff on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:33PM (#16654355)
That the two major candidates raised so much money means that other candidates barely even get a look in. Arguably a different facet of the same problem / part of a much broader problem that the two major parties are so entrenched.
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by threeseed on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:39PM (#16654383)
There was far more money spent by third parties e.g. PACs, NRA, Special Interests etc and so without including those this statement isn't a true reflection of the campaign.
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by geowwy on Thursday March 22, 2018 @10:16PM (#16654560)
Do you have the figures? According to this Hillary got more support from PACs etc too:

https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by enraged_camel on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:27PM (#16654315)
Yes, and?

This problem goes well beyond any single political candidate.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by orangecat on Thursday March 22, 2018 @10:03PM (#16654502)
The claim is that campaign spending is so determinative of election results that we have to throw people in prison for spending money to express their political opinions in unapproved ways. Both the primaries and general election in 2016 are strong evidence against this. (Sanders outspent Clinton: https://www.npr.org/2016/04/29/476047822/sanders-campaign-ha.... Jeb Bush spent a fortune: http://time.com/money/4231669/election-2016-money-spent/).
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by chillwaves on Friday March 23, 2018 @07:55AM (#16657052)
Sanders outspent Clinton but Clinton (like Trump) was a well known and established public figure reaping in huge benefits from free media coverage.

You need to think about these things in nuance rather than just looking at hard numbers.

People say Sanders got crushed by Clinton, ignoring the media blackout on his campaign for the first half of the primary and the fact that he started in the low single digits for name ID and ended with 45% of the votes.

Context matters.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by orangecat on Friday March 23, 2018 @10:27AM (#16658481)
Sanders outspent Clinton but Clinton (like Trump) was a well known and established public figure reaping in huge benefits from free media coverage.

Yes, that's part of my point. Suppose you overcome the many Constitutional and logistical problems and pass campaign finance laws that limit candidates to spending a fixed amount of money and prohibit third party spending. This would give an even bigger advantage to candidates who are already well known, political insiders, and those the media chooses to give attention to.

People say Sanders got crushed by Clinton, ignoring the media blackout on his campaign for the first half of the primary and the fact that he started in the low single digits for name ID and ended with 45% of the votes.

And the DNC blatantly putting their thumb on the scale. Sanders did as well as he did largely because ordinary people were able to contribute to his campaign and help get his message out.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by chillwaves on Friday March 23, 2018 @11:15AM (#16658978)
This does not support the argument that money does not matter in politics. It clearly does. It is not everything, but it is something and something huge.

Money is a proxy to power. Power can be expressed in different ways, such as influence as seen by both Clinton and Trump.

How does this refute that money from any source can influence elections? We need campaign finance reform now.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by djrogers on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:54PM (#16660092)
GP does not appear to be disputing the claim that money matters in politics, (s)he appears to be disputing the insistence that this is a bad thing which must be removed.

Currently the only leverage that someone from outside the government class has is money, and reform that takes all of that power from the citizenry and puts it in the hands of the government is downright scary.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by specialist on Thursday March 22, 2018 @11:09PM (#16654779)
Sure. If you exclude PACs, dark money, earned media...
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by oblib on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:25AM (#16655300)
"Citizens United is overturned, and we get some kind of legislation like this..."

My own opinion is that asking politicians who take "Big Money" to pass legislation to put a stop to that is unrealistic. It will never, ever, happen.

What is realistic is to personally pledge and publicly announce that you will stop voting for any politician who takes or uses Big Money and urge others to do the same.

When you get enough representatives elected who don't take that Big Money, and defeat enough who do, passing that legislation will be possible. But not before then.

This is happening right now. People are beginning to do this. We all need to do this.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by djrogers on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:50PM (#16660046)
> a set equal amount for each major party candidate

So the government gets to decide which political parties can run candidates? That sounds a little too much like certain 'democratic' dictatorships. I don't think we want to (or can) put that much power in the hands of the government.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by chickenbane on Thursday March 22, 2018 @08:44PM (#16654102)
I would be happy with laws clearly requiring a presidential candidate to disclose their full income taxes for the past 5 years, and also required them to put their assets into a blind trust / index fund when inaugurated into office. We should not have to question the president's basic motivations or allegiances.

Stronger anti-nepotism laws, restraints on the ability to pardon, and ending the electoral college also all seem helpful and would have bipartisan support.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by adventured on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:35PM (#16654361)
Ending the electoral college would have nearly zero bipartisan support. Democrats have a popular vote advantage, and the demographics + immigration picture of the US guarantee that will remain for a generation at least (as far as one can reasonable project into the future anyway). The Republicans are fully aware of that problem, they'd never support ending the electoral college. Republicans broadly also do not believe in what would be closer to direct democracy.

If ending the electoral college had any meaningful bipartisan support, it would already be dead as a system, as changing that is overwhelmingly supported by Democrats.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by dahdum on Thursday March 22, 2018 @10:49PM (#16654702)
Public support for abolishing the electoral college also drops with higher educational attainment. It’s reasonable to assume as the issue is debated publicly overall support would drop as more become informed.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/2305/americans-long-questioned-e...

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by oldgulph on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:16AM (#16655270)
In 1969, The U.S. House of Representatives voted for a national popular vote by a 338–70 margin.

Recent and past presidential candidates who supported direct election of the President in the form of a constitutional amendment, before the National Popular Vote bill was introduced: George H.W. Bush (R-TX-1969), Bob Dole (R-KS-1969), Gerald Ford (R-MI-1969), Richard Nixon (R-CA-1969), Michael Dukakis (D-MA), Jimmy Carter (D-GA-1977), and Hillary Clinton (D-NY-2001).

Recent and past presidential candidates with a public record of support, before November 2016, for the National Popular Vote bill that would guarantee the majority of Electoral College votes and the presidency to the candidate with the most national popular votes: Bob Barr (Libertarian- GA), U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R–GA), Congressman Tom Tancredo (R-CO), and Senator Fred Thompson (R–TN), Senator and Vice President Al Gore (D-TN), Ralph Nader, Governor Martin O’Malley (D-MD), Jill Stein (Green), Senator Birch Bayh (D-IN), Senator and Governor Lincoln Chafee (R-I-D, -RI), Governor and former Democratic National Committee Chair Howard Dean (D–VT), Congressmen John Anderson (R, I –ILL).

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by djrogers on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:58PM (#16660142)
And in 2013 a Democrat led Senate failed to pass an assault weapons ban. Times and opinions change, and expecting any politician to always vote the same way twice is folly.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Weapons_Ban_of_2013

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by dahdum on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:00AM (#16655480)
Is the list of those who oppose shorter? Back then the Senate killed it, and I doubt they wouldn’t do so again. Given the population growth of coastal cities it would be a hard sell for a state like South Dakota to ratify.

Each party would adjust their platform as a result, so there is fundamental advantage to either that I see. It would certainly save a lot of time spent campaigning in the middle battleground states, and result in a lot more pork barrel projects in cities.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by oldgulph on Friday March 23, 2018 @03:00PM (#16661495)
The National Popular Vote bill in 2017 passed the New Mexico Senate and Oregon House. It was approved in 2016 by a unanimous bipartisan House committee vote in both Georgia (16 electoral votes) and Missouri (10). Since 2006, the bill has passed 35 state legislative chambers in 23 rural, small, medium, large, Democratic, Republican and purple states with 261 electoral votes, including one house in Arizona (11), Arkansas (6), Maine (4), Michigan (16), Nevada (6), North Carolina (15), and Oklahoma (7), and both houses in Colorado (9) and New Mexico (5). The bill has been enacted by 11 small, medium, and large jurisdictions with 165 electoral votes – 61% of the way to guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes and the presidency to the candidate with the most national popular votes.

It changes state winner-take-all laws (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), without changing anything in the Constitution, using the built-in method that the Constitution provides for states to make changes.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by dahdum on Sunday March 25, 2018 @12:32AM (#16670772)
> It has been enacted into law in 11 states possessing 165 electoral votes (CA, DC, HI, IL, MA, MD, NJ, NY, RI, VT, WA).

So far only very blue states have passed it, which tells you something about what the red and competitive states think of it.

The campaign is cleverly structured in a way to avoid national debate on the matter, and delayed impact further reduces the discussion in each state.

I don’t see it going anywhere.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by oldgulph on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:15AM (#16655263)
In Gallup polls since they started asking in 1944 until this election, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states) (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).

Support for a national popular vote for President has been strong among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group in every state surveyed. In the 41 red, blue, and purple states surveyed, overall support has been in the 67-81% range - in rural states, in small states, in Southern and border states, in big states, and in other states polled.

Most Americans don't ultimately care whether their presidential candidate wins or loses in their state or district. Voters want to know, that no matter where they live, even if they were on the losing side, their vote actually was equally counted and mattered to their candidate. Most Americans think it is wrong that the candidate with the most popular votes can lose. We don't allow this in any other election in our representative republic.

The National Popular Vote bill in 2017 passed the New Mexico Senate and Oregon House. It was approved in 2016 by a unanimous bipartisan House committee vote in both Georgia (16 electoral votes) and Missouri (10). Since 2006, the bill has passed 35 state legislative chambers in 23 rural, small, medium, large, Democratic, Republican and purple states with 261 electoral votes, including one house in Arizona (11), Arkansas (6), Maine (4), Michigan (16), Nevada (6), North Carolina (15), and Oklahoma (7), and both houses in Colorado (9) and New Mexico (5). The bill has been enacted by 11 small, medium, and large jurisdictions with 165 electoral votes – 61% of the way to guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes and the presidency to the candidate with the most national popular votes.

It changes state winner-take-all laws (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), without changing anything in the Constitution, using the built-in method that the Constitution provides for states to make changes.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by moduspol on Friday March 23, 2018 @06:17AM (#16656544)
What relevance does this have to political campaigns?

You seem to be implying it's a foregone conclusion that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government to do this, but that certainly hasn't been proven.

At best, this reveals a clearer link in the DNC emails being hacked from Russia. These were then sent to Wikileaks. If they came from Russia, then it was likely to influence our election, and it likely benefited Trump. But that (in no way) implies any behavior on the part of the Trump campaign. You're making a big leap here.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by catawbasam on Thursday March 22, 2018 @08:35PM (#16654050)
There need to be clear consequences, to serve as a deterrent. Having a functioning democracy is a core interest of the United States, so the consequences should be severe.
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by polotics on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:42PM (#16654397)
Well, treason is already well defined in law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_Sta...

No one has been executed for treason against the federal government. Yet.

Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by stale2002 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @09:05PM (#16654204)
Or in other words, instead of trying to prevent leaks, we should encourage as many leaks as possible, so as to provide transparency on political campaigns.
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by saas_co_de on Thursday March 22, 2018 @10:39PM (#16654651)
The best way to fight fascism is with censorship ... obviously.
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by SanderSantema on Friday March 23, 2018 @10:58AM (#16658794)
I don't think it's necessarily a pipe dream but I don't it's just a case of changing some laws I think it would require a culture change to. To me politics still seem really representative of the people, politicians can only prosper if there's an environment for them to.
Re:Guccifer 2.0 Slipped Up and Revealed He Was a Russian Int... by djur on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:31AM (#16655603)
What kind of behavior do you mean by "the type of behavior"?