News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by exabrial on Thursday March 15, 2018 @11:53PM (#16598495)
I feel like we're playing a dangerous game, escalating towards war. We've interfered with each other's elections dating back to the cold war. I'm not saying it's moral, but we should maybe reexamine our own actions and what we're willing to sacrifice before asking for things [extraditions] for things we're also guilty of.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by OrganicMSG on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:37AM (#16598662)
This is somewhat simplistic, but I cannot help but feel that at least a part of this current drama is about giving a Boris Yeltsin variant back to the west.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by onetimemanytime on Thursday March 15, 2018 @11:56PM (#16598507)
Russia cannot afford a war. It simply doesn't have the money or military to go against USA and Europe. And, no, China is not going to help them out
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by chokolad on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:01AM (#16598532)
Russia can't afford starting conventional war against NATO, but if such a war will somehow flare up, Russia can afford to finish the nuclear war that will follow.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by onetimemanytime on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:19AM (#16598599)
Nuclear war? A person can go nuts and start shooting at an NRA convention, but Putin Inc has no death wish. Government is government ruled by thousands of top people and almost all are rich and want to live. If Putin goes nuts, he'll be arrested or killed by his own generals.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by riku_iki on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:26AM (#16598826)
thousands of top people don't have access to block trigger in emergency situation.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by kurthr on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:18AM (#16598595)
I think you are saying they can afford Mutually Assured Destruction? I hope they're not that crazy.

I suppose it's monetarily/mechanically true, but it's almost like saying you can afford a new car when your life insurance pays out.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by forapurpose on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:07AM (#16598763)
> I think you are saying they can afford Mutually Assured Destruction? I hope they're not that crazy.

Russia has been working on strategies for limited use of nuclear weapons; they don't believe in MAD. It's called Escalate to De-escalate:

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2017-02/escalate-...

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/munich-security-forum/2018/0...

https://thebulletin.org/why-russia-calls-limited-nuclear-str...

It's as crazy as it sounds; a miscalculation could destroy humanity. Consider that their ability to significantly influence foreign publics through social media could be valuable for the de-escalation portion. No doubt we'll see people claiming (false) equivalency between Russia's and the U.S.'s actions - 'they bombed Japan, we bombed Ukraine'.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by Waterluvian on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:26AM (#16598625)
The problem with logicing away MAD is that these hierarchies of power are built where it takes just one madman, not bound by logic, to decide to destroy everything. Then you pray for some breakdown in command down the chain. Dr. Strangelove and all that.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by dvtv75 on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:46AM (#16598889)
I find myself hoping that there's one person in every hierarchy who loves his (or her, for that matter) country and the world more than the leader, and is willing to execute the leader to prevent a nuclear war.

With the cults-of-personality in place throughout Russia, China, North Korea, and the US, I'm nowhere near believing that such a person is in the right place, but I suppose that's the difference between hope and fact.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by chokolad on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:27AM (#16598628)
I am saying that it's highly unlikely that Russia will start conventional war with NATO. On the other hand I am not so sure about NATO not starting the war with Russia. In that case it can easily escalate to MAD. I have an unsubstantiated feeling (probably too much r/worldnews) that US/EU citizens don't even think that it will escalate that far. I find this very dangerous.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by kurthr on Friday March 16, 2018 @10:11AM (#16600744)
Because Ukraine wasn't a member (only applied for membership, but hadn't met requirements) when "separtists" "freed" the Crimean peninsula to "protect" the Russian civilians "trapped" there. Shooting down MH17, a B777-200ER with 298 aboard, 50km over Ukraine using a SAM was provoked by NATO?

I think I have an idea of who will be invading, escalating, and hoping there won't be consequences.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by mirimir on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:45AM (#16598693)
Right. I mean, what happens if Russian forces get cornered, and use tactical nukes? That's how the Cuban Missile Crisis almost became WWIII. I've also read that the Soviets threatened to nuke Tel Aviv during the Six-Day War, if Israel bombed Cairo.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by mirimir on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:38AM (#16598665)
Russia has lots of small tactical nukes.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by chokolad on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:20AM (#16598603)
onetimemanytime - are you willing to make that bet ? I'm not.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by kurthr on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:26AM (#16598626)
If we want to postulate the geo-politics of a Russia so crazy as to launch a nuclear attack (hoping for no response), we can also look at the effects of having a Russia so reviled that they become the focus of the entire world's fear and hatred.

Would having a single known enemy make for a more unified and ultimately productive world?

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by chokolad on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:31AM (#16598643)
Check my answer to another post of yours. I doubt Russia will launch an unprovoked nuclear attack but I would not put it behind them to escalate conventional war to nuclear if it will start going badly.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by rdiddly on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:14AM (#16598791)
Russia is absolutely prepared to win a land war in their own territory. It kind of appears to be all they're interested in. Which would tend to make one draw some crazy wacky conclusions like maybe it's a defensive force held by a nation of peace-loving people who just want to cooperate and be respected, or at least left alone?

Probably sounds ridiculous to anybody steeped in the current wave of anti-Russian hysteria in the American media (or the earlier wave in the 80s). Why somebody might be producing warmongering propaganda against Russia I don't know, but clearly I'm supposed to take it as an unquestioned first principle that of course Russia is out to get us (as if we weren't busy "getting" ourselves) and of course Putin is the bogeyman -- Putin, a guy who has something like an 80% approval rating among his people and whose every public speech seems to be about conciliation, cooperation and peacemaking. Something isn't quite right. (Probably both sides are full of shit.)

Anyway no one has ever invaded Russia and won, including Napoleon and Hitler. Russians are proud of that. Their navy is about 2/3 as big as the US, but if what you're defending is most of Asia (an ocean of dirt) maybe that's not the biggest concern. Anyway if China does join in, their navy is comparable to the US's, and together with Russia's, it'd be bigger.

The Russian air force is tiny (same for China) but given that all our aircraft carriers are basically sitting ducks for all the various Russian carrier-busting missiles they have nowadays, our air superiority might not matter as much as we'd like to think. Also they tend to stretch money further. Their jets are fairly cheap, indestructible metal cans with loose tolerances... kind of like flying AK-47s... while ours are exquisite and expensive (because they're made out of porkbarrel) and you have to walk the airfield and pick up every little bitty piece of debris before you take off, otherwise it might suck something in and choke... so the equivalent of a flying AR-15 that always jams.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by m_fayer on Friday March 16, 2018 @05:56AM (#16599624)
Don't shoot the messenger but take it from a first-generation Russian who has spent time there: peace-loving is a stretch. Ask yourself what it says about a nation that has a leader who is an authoritarian chauvinist, openly espouses pre-liberal values, and embraces force and deception as a legitimate way of achieving his ends, and that leader has a legit 80% approval rating. Nothing good.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by nerfhammer on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:54AM (#16598921)
> Their navy is about 2/3 as big as the US [...]. Anyway if China does join in, their navy is comparable to the US's, and together with Russia's, it'd be bigger.

This is way off. The USN is about 4x the size of the Russian navy and about 5x that of China.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by dragonwriter on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:38AM (#16598858)
> Russia is absolutely prepared to win a land war in their own territory. It kind of appears to be all they're interested in.

That's clearly not true, as recent history shows, unless one has a fairly broad definition of what Russia’s “own territory” is.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by rdiddly on Friday March 16, 2018 @02:40AM (#16599027)
Ukraine was geographically and culturally part of Russia for centuries, only becoming independent in 1991 when the USSR collapsed.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by dragonwriter on Friday March 16, 2018 @04:30AM (#16599346)
> Ukraine was geographically and culturally part of Russia for centuries

No, it wasn't, though much of it was politically, through conquest, part of Russia for a couple centuries (and a bit more of of it for just over one century) prior to the formation of the USSR, and there was certainly an intense effort by Russia to colonize Ukraine with Russians to break it's distinct culture during that period where much of it was under the Russian imperial rule.

Clearly, you view Russia’s own territory as anything that has ever in the past been subjugated by Russia independently of where modern nation-states lie, and in that respect, sure, Russia may be primarily concerned with fighting wars to re-establish empire in those places.

But that's not a sign of a peace-loving nation, but instead of a warmongering imperialist one that prioritizes restoring it's “glorious” past.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by lostmsu on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:14PM (#16601608)
IMO it us wrong to equate USSR and Russia here. Russia did claim USSR heritage, but it is definitely not USSR.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by dragonwriter on Friday March 16, 2018 @02:14AM (#16598983)
> Anyway no one has ever invaded Russia and won, including Napoleon and Hitler. Russians are proud of that.

Pride in this myth is one of the reasons often given for why the New Chronology and the associated conspiracy theory of how all of what is held to be history prior to the middle ages is a fabrication (and much of that of the middle ages, too), since that allows the idea that the Mongol invasion never happened.

> Anyway if China does join in, their navy is comparable to the US's, and together with Russia's, it'd be bigger.

Numerically, maybe, but numerical comparisons aren't comparisons of capability. (Ditto with the comment on Russia’s Navy.)

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by qqqwww on Friday March 16, 2018 @02:01AM (#16598946)
"Anyway no one has ever invaded Russia and won"

Except the Mongols.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by vadimberman on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:29AM (#16598633)
Nobody needs a conventional war anymore, unless the takeover of the enemy territory and resources is an objective. Blockades and sanctions are far less efficient than in the past when it was possible to completely cut off a vital supply of resources for an entire nation.

It is much cost-effective and efficient to engage in low-intensity sabotage while making an innocent face, scaring the population, and balancing in the gray zone.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by mc32 on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:00AM (#16598529)
Europe is not in good shape to fight a war by themselves against Russia. So Russia could get away with lots of things like they did in Eastern Ukraine or meddle some more in the middle east. It does not hurt them, but it will hurt the EU as well as the US.
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by exabrial on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:15AM (#16598582)
A conventional one, very true and a good point to keep in mind. Do you think, however, this would push them towards the nuclear button?
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by onetimemanytime on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:20AM (#16598602)
IMO, only if invaded and all else has failed. Say China invades Siberia
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by exabrial on Friday March 16, 2018 @12:22AM (#16598610)
11 time zones later, they can reach Europe...!
Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by forapurpose on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:02AM (#16598750)
First, can you back up the claims in this comment? Also, Russia has had very few actual elections, especially when you include the Cold War era. Finally, there is no moral equivalency between totalitarian dictatorships which murder tens of millions and oppress nations from Germany to the Pacific (and elsewhere), and free democracies, with all their flaws.

The false equivalencies appear on every issue that casts the Chinese or Russian governments in a bad light. Speaking of the Cold War, IIRC my history, the KGB liked to use them in their propaganda.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by rflrob on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:31AM (#16598842)
How about the coups in Guatemala or Iran? In one sense, those are different because we viewed both of those countries as lesser powers and within our sphere of influence, but I would argue that the underlying philosophy of democracy is that all men and women, everywhere, are created equal, which means us secretly meddling in the elections of tiny Gadjookistan has comparable moral weight to Evil Empire meddling in ours. We don’t always live up to that ideal; pluralistic democracy certainly does better than a totalitarian system, but we aren’t blameless. I believe we can be a stronger advocate for democracy abroad by owning up to our past mistakes, making some kind of amends, and making plans for what to do in similar situations in the future that avoid making those mistakes. Containing communism was viewed as a critical threat, but how much did we hurt the long-term cause for democracy by taking short-term steps to suppress what may well have been early democratic socialist leaders? I can’t tell you for sure that Arbenz wouldn’t have been an early Hugo Chavez (at whose feet I lay most of the blame for Venezuela’s current troubles), but I think we ought to have at least let the Guatemalans make their own mistakes.

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27éta...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by boomboomsubban on Friday March 16, 2018 @02:02AM (#16598951)
The US loaned the Yeltsin government 10 billion dollars shortly before the 96 election, at the same time they were involved with the First Chechen War. A Republican consultant team also ran Yeltsin's campaign.

The US looks great when compared to Stalin era USSR. When compared to modern day Russia, it's hard to argue we have the unquestionable moral high ground.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by forapurpose on Saturday March 17, 2018 @02:40PM (#16608356)
> When compared to modern day Russia, it's hard to argue we have the unquestionable moral high ground.

It's very easy. Putin is a dictator and the Russians have no democracy, undermine others, poison people, etc. The U.S. doesn't have clean hands, but there is no comparison.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by boomboomsubban on Monday March 19, 2018 @02:26PM (#16621460)
Democracy does not mean moral, though you posted this on the day of the Russian election. And though they're obviously rigged, the US one isn't some glorious opportunity for the will of the people to be heard either.

As for your other two issues, the US has had no issue undermining elections for years, and runs a public assassination program in addition to anything that remains secret. There is a comparison, and both sides are awful.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by forapurpose on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @05:46PM (#16633023)
> Democracy does not mean moral

Yes it does. Democracy (the concept) is moral because it gives self-determination and liberty to people. Of course, everything, including democracy, is very imperfect in execution.

> the Russian election. And though they're obviously rigged, the US one isn't some glorious opportunity for the will of the people to be heard either.

Again, there is no comparison. It's like saying Hitler and the U.S. both used internment camps in WWII, therefore they are morally equal.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @12:13AM (#16635402)
Self-determination and liberty are not necessarily moral either. There have been moral despots and immoral democracies, there is more involved than that.

>Again, there is no comparison.

Yes, there is. On basic principle, the choice between two is not far better than one choice. Beyond that, some of the things done to rig American elections are worse than what Putin does. For example, in 68 Nixon interfered in Vietnam peace talks to ensure election. What would have happened without that is unclear, but it potentially cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by eddiebilly on Friday March 16, 2018 @01:58AM (#16598936)
>The false equivalencies appear on every issue that casts the Chinese or Russian governments in a bad light.

Yeah and it even has its own yankee response meme called "whataboutism". If we want to go peak "whataboutism" here, the founding of the US was based on the ethnic slaughter and enslavement of millions of aboriginal and african peoples. American culture and corporations have a hand in nearly every corner of the world. If you want to get into the head of Russian paranoia towards the US and the anglosphere in general, look at the US for what its ruling elites have historically demonstrated itself to do, to dominate everything that exists by any means necessary which includes wiping out inconvenient peoples both culturally and literally.

Re:In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energ... by forapurpose on Tuesday March 20, 2018 @05:54PM (#16633081)
You brought up a term you don't like, and then complained about it.

> If you want to get into the head of Russian paranoia towards the US and the anglosphere in general, look at the US for what its ruling elites have historically demonstrated itself to do, to dominate everything that exists by any means necessary which includes wiping out inconvenient peoples both culturally and literally.

That's quite a statement. The Americas are generally free, independent democracies, including U.S. neighbors Canada and Mexico. The places conquered by the US in WWII soon became, free, prosperous and completely independent allies, Germany and Japan being the leading examples.

In fact, at the end of the war the US was the only nuclear armed power, had half the world's GDP (!) with a fully functioning economy while competitors were physically and economically devastated, and had a massive military spread around the globe. They could have chosen to become dictators to the world; instead they withdrew and helped form international institutions, such as the UN, World Bank, IMF, GATT/WTO, and others, to promote international peace and prosperity.

Yes, the US also did bad things, but the parent's statement is false and, of course, Russia does not compare.