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Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by ethagknight on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @08:57AM (#16575712)
Agree with most of what you say, but two open questions- debt alone on $500k amounts to $180/day (10yr am, 6%). Then there’s cost of energy, dead time during recharge, dead leg trips to the next customer, dead let to charge port, maintenance will be rigorous even if the plane doesn’t need it because FAA. Landing fees while be high for urban landing points, plus ground crew at some locations. “Max $100/hr” is way low, even Uber sits around that level for a $30k vehicle with 2x the efficiency.

Second- I have a hard one understanding how this could approach the aerodynamics of a Cirrus. All those fans will be drag monsters.

And a little side fun note on rooftop landing pads- ideally, a high rise has expose cooling towers on the roof, taking up most available space. Any rooftop landing facility would have to be constructed over that, at phenomenal cost per foot. Developers expect to get repaid handsomely for that kind of capex. If you aren’t landing rooftop, you are landing at an alternate location X blocks away, which could be a real drag of the other kind..

There is DEFINITELY a market for this plane, and it’s bigger than current heli, but it’s probably not ubiquitous air taxi service

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by danielvf on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @09:40AM (#16575981)
I'd love a link to that Uber cost number - I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around a car costing more than $100/hr to operate. Even a New York City cab, rented to a driver from a profit making cab company and including the cost of the medallion was $120 for twelve hours of driving.

A chunk of a GA aircraft's operational cost is annual maintenance. By flying more per year, the operational cost of an aircraft goes down. I think you can get the operational of a Cirrus down to $100/hr if you fly it 500 hours per year.

However, operating this aircraft at scale would seem to have some real maintenance advantages beyond what you would typically see for General Aviation:

- There's only one moving part in an electric motor, vs all the complexity of a [edit: 6 cylinder] piston aircraft engine.

- You can specialize your people, procedures, and facility around a single aircraft type.

- You can swap out engines and avionics and work on them while the aircraft returns to flying.

And yes, this won't be as aerodynamic as a Cirrus, but it should be similar to a GA single engine aircraft, rather than either a quadcopter or a helicopter.

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by opwieurposiu on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @11:23AM (#16576847)
GA aircraft engines are rarely V6 they are mostly flat 6 or flat 4 for smaller planes. If you go to the website for Lycoming as an example you see they are all flat except for one I4. https://www.lycoming.com/engines
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by ethagknight on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @04:28PM (#16579487)
Thanks for thoughtful response!

- I was just looking at the cost for me to take Uber across town. My experience has a lot of 30 minute trips in different cities, which has equated to $50 rides on UberX, and that is always between urban centers and airports (i.e. ideal connecting points). My assumption would be that Uber gets as close to operating cost as feasible, if not cheating on the backs of the drivers, plus Uber hasn't actually made money (but thats a different discussion!). So thats my $100/hr for an Uber. Never mind the fact that personal car ownership is far cheaper.

- With very limited experience with general aviation, I have chartered a few private flights- for around $4000 for a day trip on a late model KingAir. Not worth much for this comparison. But thats why I looked to Uber as the absolute low end, because the best economics of air travel will probably only approach the best economics of surface travel.

- I just don't know why Cora's aerodynamics wouldn't look a heck of a lot like a quadcopter. My background is Civil engineering (im a static kind of guy!) so i dont know much here. All those extra surfaces add a lot of drag, no way around it. I wonder if they could turn the props and feather them up so they all align and provide lift with forward flight? I'm sure Eric Allison (engineering lead) is on top of it.

Dont get me wrong, I think its great stuff and I look forward to its development. However, there are a lot more problems to solve than just perfecting the actual aircraft. Its a whole ecosystem, not just an air shuttle. Recent history has given us a few great entrepreneurs who have overcome a multitude of problems in their space, but i definitely wouldn't bet too early on something like this without a little more to show for it. The New Zealand partnership will be a good prooving grounds.

EDIT: im happy to be wrong on all this!

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by godelski on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @12:49PM (#16577524)
Most GA aircraft don't cost 500k. Just want to put that out there. And I see Skyhawks and Cherokees go for $90-$150/hr.
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by thaumaturgy on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @11:05AM (#16576659)
I'm surprised almost nobody's talking about the relative change in safety yet.

Transportation accidents are the leading cause of "unintentional injury" deaths (i.e., not disease, suicide, or homicide) [1]. Although the absolute rates are somewhat low (7.28 fatalities per billion miles for cars and light trucks), you are approximately 100 times more likely to die while driving than flying (table 2 in [1]).

[1]: http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/~ipsavage/436.pdf

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by pc86 on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @11:07AM (#16576684)
This is not commercial aviation, this is general aviation (even if it's commercial in nature). GA is more dangerous than driving, roughly comparable to riding a motorcycle, and that's being optimistic.
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by danielvf on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @11:22AM (#16576839)
Strong agreement - no sane company would operate a taxi company at the current General Aviation safety rates. They are going to have to do a whole, whole lot better.

Getting safer seems like it could be possible, but it's going to be an enormous amount of work.

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by TylerE on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @01:08PM (#16577661)
There is no such thing as "commercial general aviation". Once you're accepting fee-for-service you are a commercial carrier with all the regulations that go along with that.
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by pc86 on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @06:37AM (#16583686)
Just because you're getting a paycheck doesn't make your Skyhawk magically as safe as a 787. This is decidedly in the GA category in terms of safety.
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by TylerE on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @05:11PM (#16588340)
No it doesn't.

But someone flying commercially, even in a Cessna is going to have quite a bit more training than Joe Pilot who flys 10 hours a year. A commercial and IFR certificate at the very least, and will also have to pass more stringent and more frequent medical exams.

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by gambiting on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @11:19AM (#16576811)
These "driving related" injuries and deaths stats are almost always skewed because they include fatalities/injuries for drunk driving and night time driving. Someone only driving to work and back is at an absolutely minuscule risk of injury/death from driving.
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by thaumaturgy on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @01:58PM (#16578175)
I'm happy to accept ~pc86's correction up above, but I disagree with this rebuttal. The risk is minuscule in the absolute sense (several hundred fatalities per billion miles), and if you are driving drunk (or tired, or on painkillers, or while texting), your odds of collision certainly go up.

But just because you aren't doing those things, doesn't make you any less at risk from other people doing those things. You are still on the road, surrounded by, in some areas, hundreds or thousands of deadly machines operated by people who are generally almost capable of handling them.

I just finished an excellent book on this, "A Deadly Wandering", which examines distracted driving specifically but also touches on a few other related subjects. In the primary case that the book follows, and in the few others it mentions, distracted drivers walked away from wrecks where they had killed innocent other passengers or motorists.

Being in a car (or bike, or motorcycle) on the road is one of the most dangerous things the average person does on a regular basis.

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by gambiting on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @05:23AM (#16583397)
Absolutely, I'm just saying that the risk you are in changes depending where you are and what you do, there is an average amount of risk but it doesn't apply to everyone.

I understand that some people have very dangerous commutes, but for some it's literally 10 miles of traffic moving at <10mph 99% of the time. If that's your "driving" then the risk of having a life destroying accident is almost nil and it's probably safer than walking or cycling at that point(you basically sit for an hour in a metal cage that's barely moving, surrounded by other barely moving metal cages).

Yes, there is still a chance someone else around you could be drunk or speeding or distracted, but if you are sitting in an 8-lane jam that's not really going to do much damage.

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by notheguyouthink on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @11:49AM (#16577098)
Not that it's statistically relevant, but my drive to work feels like my most dangerous drive, by far. An interstate that seems to have a fatal accident on it weekly, of which I'm usually within an affected time window.

Still not saying I'm narrowly avoiding death or anything, but man, the sheer volume of people going to work on the interstate every morning and night causes so many wrecks.

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by jgalt212 on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @09:20AM (#16575855)
Great video on the Pan Am building rooftop helicopter service to NYC area airports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nbz5VFilxY

Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by chiph on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @11:06AM (#16576676)
The family flew on one of New York Airways' helicopters from Newark to Kennedy back in 1974. Pretty exciting stuff for a 4th grader!
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by hagurganus on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @11:13AM (#16576756)
This was an awesome video; I had no idea this type of thing ever existed. Thanks for sharing!
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by ethagknight on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @04:46PM (#16579640)
Blade, the company at the end of that video, had a fatal crash this week.
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by Beltiras on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @10:18AM (#16576271)
You can use battery swapouts instead of grounding the vehicle.
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by programbreeding on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @09:14AM (#16575817)
I imagine this same conversation when the car was first becoming a reality. You have to start somewhere.
Re:Cora – Kitty Hawk's prototype air taxi [video] by soVeryTired on Tuesday March 13, 2018 @10:21AM (#16576294)
Also the hovercraft - it's just that those turned out to be pretty niche.