News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by sokoloff on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:40PM (#16533697)
If you're starting from scratch now as a hobbyist or novice PCB designer, I'd recommend KiCAD over Eagle. KiCAD is fully open-source and has now progressed to the point where it's viable.

Autodesk, on the other hand, has shown signs of crippling Eagle after they bought it, such that I have my doubts about Eagle being viable in 5 years.

If you already know Eagle, it's a tougher call, but if you have just begun learning, I think you're better off with KiCAD.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by bschwindHN on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:37PM (#16534080)
I made my first PCB in KiCAD, overall it worked pretty well for the relatively simple board I made.

I definitely recommend putting it into OpenGL mode as you get extra features like nice autorouting and a smoother framerate. Not sure why design features are tied to the rendering engine but that's just how it is for now.

I made all my parts/footprints myself in their editor. The library management is a little convoluted but all it takes is some time on Youtube tutorial videos to get the hang of things.

I like that all the kicad files are text and easily version-controlled so I can have my entire parts library and board designs in git and can easily roll back to previous iterations if needed.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by fermienrico on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:01PM (#16533968)
I found KiCAD extremely painful to use. Parts library is a mess and the developers are extremely uninterested in listening to people. I love open source projects and want to support them - KiCAD isn't one of them.

My life has changed since I discovered DipTrace. It is free for non-commercial use and extremely cheap for commercial use - About $100 would get you enough to build small-medium sized projects. And it is just so well engineered. Kudos!

Also, no subscription business. Just good ol' perpetual licenses. DipTrace developers are just amazing people - if you ask nicely, they'll give you a discount if you're a startup.

https://diptrace.com/

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by theatrus2 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:18PM (#16534017)
As a former EE and PCB designer, you never use a vendor PCB library, especially one that shipped with your software.

From a software engineering standpoint, I realize this feels crazy, but its pretty much par for the course. Every organization develops their own libraries for parts and processes their vendors may use, and while there are standard size parts, there is enough variance that it doesn't really make sense.

"Re-implementing" the standard library is sadly par for the course.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by fermienrico on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:43AM (#16536674)
Ofcourse, what I was referring to is the library manager itself. Finding parts (even in your own custom library) is horrible in KiCAD. UI/UX feels like it was developed my people with opposing opinions and finally mashed it all together. In any major software, you need a lead UI person that understands, listens, and responds to the community and integrates those changes in the main branch.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by brokenmachine on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @11:04PM (#16542201)
I agree 100%. I've used computers all my life and work in IT, and I tried hard but couldn't work out how to use it. I finally gave up even though I'm still very keen to design my own PCBs.

I was planning to design my own ergonomic keyboard. I downloaded some library files for switches, etc, but it was just so painful to even find those switches in the library, I had no idea how to do anything.

I might give it a go again sometime, but it really was so bad I just gave up and let it go, hoping it would improve somewhat in future versions.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by theatrus2 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:06PM (#16537788)
Yeah, library managers are not good. Across the entire industry.

If you've ever had a run in with a piece of software called Ultra Librarian you'd probably think highly of KiCad :)

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by mb_72 on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @02:37AM (#16534879)
Agreed. I've brought a number of small to large-scale products to fruition using DipTrace. At the time I had a choice (more then several years ago now, I admit, so perhaps things had changed) KiCAD was a mess, while DipTrace just helped me get stuff done. The developers were always responsive to emails also. The cost of the license still leaves you many dollars ahead compared to other possibilities, taking into account time saved and mistakes with PCBs not made.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by inteleng on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:19PM (#16534019)
I'm no neutral party, and this is totally subjective, but KiCAD is way better than DipTrace.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Nanite on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @04:41AM (#16535292)
When I tried KiCAD several years ago, I was drawn in by the extensive feature list only to find that it suffered from the same issues as Blender, another mayor open source project, it was mainly feature driven, and the UX was horrible. Enough at least for me as a hobbyist PCB layout software user to leave it be for a few years.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by ATsch on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @05:40AM (#16535534)
I'm kind of derailing here, but I strongly disagree about the Blender UX being horrible. After getting used to it, I find it one of the most usable pro tools. The command-based approach is IMO far superior than the usual approach of having tools and a toolbar you must switch. The windowing system is amazing and everything being scriptable is incredibly powerful.

I consider it somewhat similar to vim or CLI programs in general in that regard... It violates all conventions you are used to, but internally it is very consistent and well made.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by the-dude on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:20AM (#16535688)
I have heard all EDA UX's are horrible.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Greg-J on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:16PM (#16542029)
I'm just getting into PCB design as a hobby and I agree with the sentiment about KiCAD. I love open source, and I support open source, but KiCAD is a mess. I watched a half hour video they put out recently to try to understand why it's so bad, and I boil it down to these guys develop in a vacuum and they don't really understand HCI/interactive design. At all.

They understand PCB design, but they do not understand software design at all.

I wish Altium had a more accessible license for hobbyists because it's amazing. I'll have to check out DipTrace.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by IshKebab on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:06AM (#16536069)
I wouldn't recommend either. They are both a mess.

Unfortunately there is no good open source EDA software. Sorry but it's true. Also Eagle is the biggest pile of crap I've ever used. Worse than Eclipse. If you don't believe me, download it and then try to work out how to copy and paste something.

The best free, closed source software is DesignSpark PCB. It's still a little weird (e.g. zooming warps the cursor) but it at least is fairly logical to use. You can work it out without extensive tutorials. And there aren't any limits on part numbers of PCB sizes unlike Eagle or MultiSim Blue.

Let me say it again - if you are a beginner DO NOT USE EAGLE! DO NOT USE KiCAD! Either pirate Altium, or use DesignSpark PCB.

Trust me, the difference is like "oh wow designing PCBs sure is complicated! I'm going to need to read a book and watch some tutorials or something" vs "huh this is much easier than I always thought it would be - it's basically MS Paint".

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by brokensegue on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @09:49AM (#16536711)
So I recently picked up kicad for some hobby project and made my first boards. I did exactly as you said "watched some tutorials" and I still think that making PCBs is easier than I thought it would be. Kicad definitely has rough edges and I have zero experience with altium but I'm still getting things done so I'm not sure your advice holds.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by IshKebab on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @01:06PM (#16538363)
Well you might have thought it was impossible! Give DesignSpark PCB a go.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by brokensegue on Thursday March 08, 2018 @11:00AM (#16545119)
at this point I know kicad and all my custom parts are in kicad. maybe for my next project.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Max-q on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:36PM (#16534076)
How did they cripple it?

I've been an Eagle user for years. After Autodesk bought it, the program has been hugely improved and new functionality is added several times a year. I have rarely see a mature software package develop this fast...

It's a subscription model,which I know some people don't like. But for a professional cad program it's not expensive. In the same ballpark as Photoshop. Competitors charge several orders of magnitude more.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by slededit on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:50PM (#16533935)
In what way have they crippled it? Its had tons of new features since the acquisition - which is especially noticeable because it languished without updates for years prior. A lot of people are upset at the subscription model but so far I've been getting good value for my money.

Case in point they've drastically improved the horrible CAM export process in previous versions. And push and shove routing is a god send.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by sokoloff on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:17PM (#16534012)
> push and shove routing is a god send

Agreed. KiCAD has had for 3+ years as well, though.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by pmorici on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:36PM (#16534074)
You have to have an active internet connection to use it. That change really irked me.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Max-q on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:43PM (#16534098)
The license works offline for 14 days. It is synced every time you open Eagle. It's also very flexible, you can install it on several computers, if you use more than one.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by pmorici on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:25PM (#16541527)
Yes, I know, it is still a huge deal breaker for me.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Greg-J on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:17PM (#16542037)
Serious question: Do you travel so often and to such remote places that you find yourself offline for two weeks?
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by pmorici on Thursday March 08, 2018 @09:56PM (#16549518)
Yes, absolutely I'm frequently without Internet connection for long periods of time. Not because of travel though.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by loup-vaillant on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @02:45AM (#16534913)
Don't know about the paid version, but the free version is limited to 80cm², or a 10×8cm area. Utterly unusable for a wide range of designs, especially if you use through hole to facilitate soldering (bigger components).
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by foldr on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @03:51AM (#16535133)
That restriction predates the Autodesk acquisition.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by loup-vaillant on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @12:25PM (#16537959)
Well… crippled all the same. At least, it's reason enough for me to instantly lose all interest. I'll find another way.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Greg-J on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @10:17PM (#16542041)
It's free if you're a student.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by loup-vaillant on Thursday March 08, 2018 @04:58AM (#16543424)
And then it stops being free? I'm no longer a student anyway. Regardless, the damn thing is still proprietary. Authoring tools should not be proprietary. I want to access my data 50 years from now. Depending on a proprietary authoring tool virtually ensures I won't be able to.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by jimmyswimmy on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:49PM (#16533740)
How's its library management? Last time I tried Kicad it was impressively bad.

There are other options which may be of interest. Altium have one, I think it's called circuit maker, and digi-key have schemeit.

Its hard to try new things when you have access to a professional package and library. I'd really like to try something free but the motivation has been a challenge.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Animats on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:50PM (#16534124)
How's its library management? Last time I tried Kicad it was impressively bad.

Yes, KiCAD, for some reason, has a GUI for library management which is both nonstandard and confusing. The schematic symbol library manager and footprint library manager have similar GUIs but behave quite differently.

Schematic editing isn't bad, although it has the worst approach to wire junctions ever seen in a schematic editor. The dot where wires connect is an entity separate from the wires, and can be omitted or moved, with negative effects on the netlist.

Layout is OK, but, as mentioned, the footprint library isn't very good. Expect to spend time looking at manufacturer data sheets and drawing footprints to match.

There's an autorouter, but due to some political problem you have to download it from another site and rename it. The autorouter and the design rule checker don't quite agree on some tight clearances, which can be a problem.

It's open source, and widely used, so you know it's not going away.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by taneq on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:52PM (#16541082)
> The schematic symbol library manager and footprint library manager have similar GUIs but behave quite differently.

Just to expand on this, KiCad is an abomination stitched together from the corpses of about six different programs. There are four different graphical editors (schematic part, schematic, pcb footprint, pcb layout) which look somewhat similar but have notably different user interface conventions for selecting, moving, copying and deleting objects, making it frustrating to switch between them. To make it even better, the PCB layout program has three different options for the "canvas" (ie. the layout area) which again have different interface conventions, and additionally some features are only available in some canvases and will simply fail to work if another canvas is selected.

These programs communicate via export/import functions instead of being properly integrated so the process to add a component to a circuit board involves five different programs and four export steps. You also can't back-annotate any changes at the PCB level back to the schematic (or at least, it's a royal pain to do so.)

Once you get your workflow going and you've pushed past the worst of the confusion, it works just well enough that it's easier to put up with the pain for now and allow your resentment to simmer than it is to figure out how to build the damn thing so you can fix it yourself.

(For comparison, I used EAGLE back in 2004 or so, and I thought it was pretty good. I'm not sure what they've done to it since then to garner such animosity.)

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Kliment on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @04:48AM (#16535318)
Here's a video I made for a Kicad workshop, and the description links to a sample project, so you can try it out and follow along. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQMEROD6Vzc
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by sokoloff on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:57PM (#16533773)
For me, doing little blinky things and other small projects, the library management was "good enough for me to not notice", but I've also never used Altium.

I didn't like my first install as it required me to be on the internet for library parts. On a later install I found the option to have them locally and that works better for doing layouts on airplane trips.

I tried Eagle a few years ago enough to make a couple designs, but never got proficient at it, just "passable". I found KiCAD easier than Eagle, but it was also several years later and my second such package, so I'm sure just being deeper in the hobby was a big part of that ease.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by amaterasu on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:57PM (#16533774)
Depends what you're used to. The library management is still split between footprint and symbol (more like old Protel) with links made between the two using an external tool. IMO the PCB layout makes up for the extra messing around (when compared to Eagle's, which is the worst I've used).
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by metaphor on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @05:15AM (#16535423)
> ...digi-key have schemeit.

Last time I checked, Scheme-it was basic web-based schematic capture, not layout.

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by black_puppydog on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @08:14AM (#16536109)
I did just that last year and don't regret it. KiCAD components and footprints are quite messy, but they promise to fix that in the upcoming version 5.

They're backed by CERN [1] (who fund actual people working on the project) and, as I'm happy to realize now, my own University of Grenoble :)

So the project is here to stay, and I really enjoyed learning how to use it.

[1] http://kicad-pcb.org/about/kicad/

Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by dbcurtis on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:52PM (#16533937)
and don't forget about gEDA. gEDA was around long before KiCAD, so I have a signifcant investment in libraries, etc. I haven't used KiCAD so can't compare them. Just Pointing out that there are two open source alternatives.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by Kliment on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @04:29AM (#16535264)
There are in fact at least two more - librepcb and horizon, though the latter two are not complete yet, they are quite exciting and show much promise
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by joshvm on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:45PM (#16533721)
Out of interest, what do you think Autodesk have crippled in Eagle? I know some people aren't happy with the pricing, but functionality-wise it seems as or more usable to me.
Re:Prototype to production: How to build and design a PCB pr... by sokoloff on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:50PM (#16533749)
It has a phone-home feature that is required, even for the free-as-in-beer version. This means that you can't trust that you'll have access to the software N years down the road for a board revision or respin if needed (maybe due to a part superseded or obsoleted or a v2 design change). You're entirely dependent on the generosity, business plans, and business success of Autodesk. If they shut the server or eliminate the free plan, you're SOL as even an archived VM won't help you.

To me, that's a deal breaker for what amounts to a code/IP editor, especially if you haven't yet invested the time to become proficient. If you have, you face perhaps a tougher choice.