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Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by prostoalex on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:17PM (#16498974)
When the electricity prices are demand-driven, the question is meaningless.

If one thinks that the energy can be put to a better use, they can set up a shop next door and start paying slightly more per kWh than the miner, thereby destroying their margins.

Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by anyfoo on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:19AM (#16499251)
Except that the resources here are finite, and using them has side effects.

Gosh this is ridiculous, why do I even have to explain it. If someone starts wasting fire extinguishers by emptying them out a window, do you proclaim that "if one thinks that the fire extinguisher can be put to a better use, they can start using them for that better purpose next door"?

Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by prostoalex on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:46AM (#16499384)
Where do they get the money to buy new extinguishers?
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by anyfoo on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:52AM (#16499407)
Depends on who buys them. The point, to completely overdraw the analogy, is: Fire extinguishers are finite, and using them damages everybody's house. So wasting them excessively on pointless activities might not be the smartest thing to do, even if you just waste your own money on them.
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by jakupovic on Saturday March 03, 2018 @08:40PM (#16512806)
You still don't get that if that electricity had a better/profitable use it would be used for such a purpose rather than Bitcoin mining.
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by dlp211 on Thursday March 01, 2018 @11:46PM (#16499112)
I don't think it's that simple. Most energy is produced without any regard for externalities. So it isn't necessarily about a better use for the energy, but the fact that it is being used at all.
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by Falkon1313 on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:26AM (#16499291)
But the power plants are producing the energy anyway. What would be the benefit if it wasn't being used?
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by benchaney on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:30AM (#16499307)
Power plants produce more energy in response to increased demand.
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by prostoalex on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:50AM (#16499399)
Some do. With hydro, nuclear, solar or wind the production is driven by other factors and can lead to market imbalances at times http://fortune.com/2016/05/11/germany-excess-power/
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by RandomInteger4 on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:42AM (#16499369)
Can you elaborate on how this process works? How the fuel gets used based on demand?
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by pdkl95 on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:59AM (#16499436)
Last I checked, a majority (plurality?) of peaking power plants[1] burn natural gas. When demand increases enough, the base load[2] increases and more power plants are added to the grid.

The grid is not a battery; generated power in is always close to the current demand output. Any claims that crypto-mining uses "clean" power just indicates the claimant doesn't understand that power is patently fungible[3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility

Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by jholman on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:57AM (#16499430)
I'm not an expert, but I think the broad strokes are pretty straightforward. Let me take a shot.

It depends on the type of plant.

There's a concept in power generation of "base load", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load , which is the minimum usage. Some plants are expensive and slow to start up and shut down. If they're cheaper per kwH, then it makes sense to use them, but only for base load.

Then there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_following_power_plant , which are halfway compromises. They spin up and shut down perhaps twice a day. If load starts falling (or grows more slowly than predicted), these'll definitely get spun up less often. If load rises (faster than predicted), more of these will be used while plans are made to bring up more base load power plants.

Then there're peaker plants, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant . These are expensive but responsive. They spin up and shut down within seconds of a change in demand.

This is all controlled by auctions, at various timescales.

A example that might be popular among the Musk fanboys of HN (e.g. me) would be https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/23/tesla-bat...

Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by RandomInteger4 on Monday March 05, 2018 @06:44PM (#16525646)
Hmm, I bet the auction process could use a blockchain.
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by bb88 on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:50AM (#16499400)
Happily. I used to work at a power company.

So the power company has a grid, and they monitor the amount of power generated with the amount of power consumed.

They know this because they have sensors at the substations that can tell how much power is being used.

If too much power is being generated, they can sell the power to another company, or turn off excess capacity.

If not enough power is being generated, they can buy the deficit from another company, or increase the generation.

It's really straightforward.

Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by anyfoo on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:50AM (#16499397)
How does the fuel in your car get used based on demand?

In all seriousness, there are many types of power plants, the exact mechanism depends on how the actual energy is produced. It is true that for some renewable energy sources like e.g. solar energy, you cannot regulate production and need to store excess energy. But for fossil fuels, you (roughly) produce by demand.

Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by anyfoo on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:40AM (#16499358)
No they don't?
Re:Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse? by downrightmike on Friday March 02, 2018 @12:20AM (#16499254)
Not so much setting up shop next door as an advantage, but moving miners closer to the pool you mine with would. If that happens to be near chearper hydro power, better. But I don't think that power companies mind being able to make more money. With ASICs and GPUs being the constraint against a competitor, power is a lower concern.