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Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by thaumaturgy on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:44AM (#16391917)
I am so glad someone on HN is here to enforce rigorous standards when it comes to this topic, in particular.

Because there have been multiple accounts of bad behavior, both subtle and not-subtle, at tech conferences (https://shift.newco.co/what-its-like-to-be-a-woman-at-a-tech..., https://blog.juliaferraioli.com/2014/08/do-you-even.html), but those aren't studies, they're just isolated experiences, so we can ignore those.

And there have been multiple accounts from women who won't use a feminine identity online due to harassment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3411627), and really talented women who have to endure sexist work environments (http://rachelbythebay.com/w/2011/12/04/meeting/), and, occasionally, even much more lively discussions from women on what it's like to work in tech (https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/4ioxw9/as_i_sit_i...). But, again, these aren't studies, so we can ignore them.

Of course, there have been studies, including one that found feminine names in chats got 25 times more malicious messages (http://www.ece.umd.edu/News/news_story.php?id=1788), which would seem to support this woman's experience too ... but, surely, we can find some way to dismiss that, too, right?

The important part is that, every time a submission like this comes along, we rush to the comments section to try to shout it down.

There are surely some medium.com posts about experiences that other developers have had that we could upvote instead. Preferably, ones from developers who don't happen to be too feminine.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by dandare on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:30AM (#16392156)
The only thing I disagree with is the assertion that women in tech (STEM?) have somehow different/worse experience than women in general. Or at least I can not imagine why that would be the case - are educated and intelligent men more sexist than the average Joe? I think the main difference is that in tech we are much more open to acknowledge the problem and discuss it.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by spunker540 on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:20AM (#16392469)
Its not so much that men in tech are worse than men in other industries, but women are far more outnumbered in tech.

If you assume a constant rate of harassment (say 5% of men harass women per year) then a woman who works alongside 20 men and 5 women (a common ratio in tech) will get harassed more than a woman who works with 12 women and 13 men (a more typical non tech ratio).

And in truth I wouldn’t be surprised if as women get more outnumbered the frequency of harassment tends to go up.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by thaumaturgy on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:01PM (#16394278)
> The only thing I disagree with is the assertion that women in tech (STEM?) have somehow different/worse experience than women in general.

I'm not sure that's a statement I'd make. I don't think I know enough to say that.

It's tempting to let myself get nerd-sniped into a longer, less productive discussion comparing different fields and pontificating on different possible causes, but then I'd be making the same mistake as so many other people here.

What we really need in these conversations is fewer people like James DaMore writing dissertations on the subject and more people saying, "hey guys, stop being dumb ass holes."

This is a problem that is better resolved by calling out socially repugnant behavior rather than dissecting it.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by urahara on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:37PM (#16398010)
It would be great to have guidelines prohibiting expressing and promoting damorish views here.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by anon12345690 on Friday March 02, 2018 @05:36PM (#16506401)
"damorish" views? I think that shows that you dont have a good understanding of them to begin with
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by verroq on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:21AM (#16392115)
>I am so glad someone on HN is here to enforce rigorous standards when it comes to this topic, in particular.

I am so glad someone on HN is here to tell us exactly why we aren't allowed to have a rigorous discussion when it comes to this topic, in particular.

It is interesting how you immediately reframe women getting harassed as misogyny. Nevermind women likely get more attention online as well.

Let's have a look at the study [0] you mention. Which measures private messages received from an IRC channel by a bot. Do you honestly not think a female username will receive more attention given the typical gender composition of an online IRC channel? (Who still uses IRC apart from unwashed CS nerds?) 25 times messages likely means there were 25 times more males than females in that particular room.

[0] Meyer, R., & Cukier, M. 2006 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.89....

This point is, without properly establishing a base rate of attention VS harassment, all you can do appeal to emotion. Yes women are being harassed in tech, are they being harassed in at a higher rate than other industries? Is it a specifically a tech problem? Is your solution to the problem to accuse men in the tech industry as misogynists/sexists further alienate both sides from each other when you don't even have proper evidence?

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by ABCLAW on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:12AM (#16392404)
I like how the unstated assumption that unwashed CS nerds are obviously hostile towards women is not further examined.

Namely because that unstated premise is almost exactly the conclusion of the argument you're trying to argue against.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by verroq on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:08AM (#16392817)
The point is that even with this assumption it still fails.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by ABCLAW on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:21AM (#16393405)
No, the point is that you can't assume "unwashed CS nerds" are troglodytes towards women while simultaneously trying to say tech doesn't have a problem with women.

Your final paragraph is particularly telling. Re-read it and think about the equivalences you're trying to draw.

Edit: >The point is that the distribution of genders are likely overwhelmingly male.

Do you just intentionally ignore the fact that without there being a differential rate of harassment between people on the basis of sex that this doesn't matter in the slightest? Your argument assumes the point you're trying to argue against.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by verroq on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:52AM (#16393653)
No one said unwashed CS nerds treat women any differently to other men. The point is that the distribution of genders is likely overwhelmingly male. Thus even if a small percentage of that male population exhibit sexist behaviour, the tiny proportation of females would get most of the abuse, and more abuse than the average male.

Work on your reading comprehension before spitting out snark.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by zimpenfish on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:01AM (#16392332)
> 25 times messages likely means there were 25 times more males than females in that particular room.

It's somewhat disingenuous to say "messages" when the study is specifically counting only "malicious messages" (and makes no mention of how many non-malicious messages were received.)

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by afpx on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:47AM (#16392252)
You have some very good points, but your tone comes across as emotional and aggressive enough to inadvertently turn off some of your intended audience. So, in your case a little ‘appeal to emotion’ may help. Maybe you guys can meet in the middle.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by DarkWiiPlayer on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:24AM (#16392497)
The same could be said about the post they replied to though, somebody made a valid point and is met with a sarcastic reply that implicitly equates criticism of a study with trying to invalidate the entire problem the study tries to underline. Let's be honest, be it here on HN, on reddit, or on twitter, this isn't a topic that you can have a conversation about without people on either side getting emotional and somewhat aggressive.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by afpx on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:41PM (#16399061)
Yep. I jumped in to try to hopefully tone down some of the excitement. I should know better and won’t try again.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by lr4444lr on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:54AM (#16393183)
The OP is suggesting an important question though: what if the vast majority of this ubiquitous harassment comes from a tiny minority of men whom few others here are even aware of?
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by creep on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:36AM (#16393517)
Are you male though? These men are everywhere for women. It is a minority of men, definitely, but that minority directs the whole of their psychological issues to women. They won't do this to you, they will rarely do this around you, and if they are around others they do it in a way that's hidden from your eyes. And the thing is, these guys are everywhere on the Internet as well. I think they spawn from 4chan or something. It starts young and the issues just keep building. They are anonymous, consequence-free interactions with women that let them vent their own issues with women. And then they go to echo-chamber forums like 4chan to validate their distorted reality. They won't interact with you because they don't have an issue with you, unless you also advocate for women and make your views public, in which case they will attempt to poke holes in your masculinity.