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Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by Quarrelsome on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @10:16AM (#16376305)
Tallinn is not very big though compared to other European capitals, also they have form for it as it was former USSR. They never even put up barriers when you had to pay (trains would have inspectors and buses were self ticket stamping).
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by dx034 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @10:30AM (#16376432)
Few German stations have barriers. It's actually "profitable" in most cities to never buy a ticket, checks are rare. I guess German mentality helps avoiding widespread abuse (and the fact that it's a crime under German law).
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by conanbatt on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:04AM (#16376757)
Germany is the only country I ever visited where i feared the ticket inspector. I've seen them put fines. They go undercover in the metro: sometimes its just a dude sitting there suddenly takes the gadget out and yells out a control. I've had foreign friends, as tourists having to pay the fine.

In SF you can simply not pay,there is no control. In argentina, the bus driver might not start the bus if you don't pay, turning the whole bus people against you. In germany, you get a damn ticket very fast, which you can pay with credit card.

I once didnt pay the ticket and felt like Jason Bourne.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by dx034 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:12AM (#16376837)
Problem is that this can get you in legal trouble after a few times. While first offender cases always get dropped, you'll get a court date if you get caught too often. I once witnessed a case where someone had to spend a short time in jail because of that. He got caught 13 times over two years (not sure how he managed that) but still appears quite harsh. The fact that Germany doesn't have massively overcrowded jails shows that most people end up paying at some point.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by walshemj on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:43PM (#16378128)
And get caught dodging rail fairs you will often be fired there was a high profile case of a highly paid financier in the City (uk) getting fired for this he probably wont be able to work in finance again.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by conanbatt on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:47PM (#16378744)
Its a criminal offense not to pay a public transportation ticket?

Damn. I really was like Jason Bourne.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by pgeorgi on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @03:38PM (#16379155)
https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/265a.html

StGB means criminal law.

(1) means that using public telecommunication services (eg. public phones, maybe paid public wifi?), public transport or entering an event with the intent not to pay the fee can lead to jail up to one year or a fine, unless there's another law that mandates a bigger punishment.

(2) means that even the attempt is a crime (ie. you don't have to succeed), otherwise them catching you would make you exempt from that law (as long as you paid up).

The first few incidents can usually be settled with the fine set by the transportation authority, both to avoid too much work in the legal system and because you might legitimately forget it every now and then (and that means no intent = not criminal = they'd lose a case based on this law).

After too many occurences they'll claim that you can't forget it that often, which helps build a case in court.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by billforsternz on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @03:37PM (#16379151)
I am glad to hear this is a thing. I was apprehensive about travelling to the other side of the world by myself recently and confessed to my wife I wish I could be more like Jason Bourne. "He never fumbles for his passport, misplaced his tickets, worries about losing his medication". This became a theme as I reported my progress. On one leg I sat opposite a high powered cop (I could see the files he was working on). I reported back to my wife with pride that I overtook the action man in the race to passport control, "just like Jason Bourne".
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by whyever on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @03:27PM (#16379080)
In practice, it's punished as a criminal offense only if you are a serial offender.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by pound on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:34PM (#16378615)
There are fare inspectors in SF. May not be too often but checks are happening.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by conanbatt on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:46PM (#16378736)
Anecdotally, I see people not pay the bus almost every stop i use it. Muni is anarchy.

Not to mention that the way to pay for cash doesnt give out change, which means taht if you dont have a clipper card, you just dont pay anything at all.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by lispm on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:42AM (#16377077)
> It's actually "profitable" in most cities to never buy a ticket, checks are rare.

The operators are adjusting this so that there are just enough controls to have enough payments. This is an optimization problem and they know what they are doing and how much.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by cleeus on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:02PM (#16378312)
I think it's not profitable. I work in Berlin and commute to work by public transport every day. You currently pay 60EUR if you get caught and I get checked at least twice a week. Repeated offenders pay more and get additional sanctions. For 60EUR you get a ticket for a month (in a yearly subscription).
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by jedrek on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:24PM (#16377433)
Every time I visit Berlin I get my ticket checked, like clockwork.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by whyever on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @03:25PM (#16379060)
Really depends on the city! In some my ticket was checked twice a year, in others more like twice a week.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by r3bl on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @10:36AM (#16376492)
Albeit a small data point, I've used public transport in more than a dozen of countries in Europe and saw barriers near public transports in three countries.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by dx034 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @10:44AM (#16376565)
The big problem with barriers is that you need standardised tickets. If you want to allow a mix of local tickets and rail tickets (to allow one fare for the whole journey) it'll be close to impossible to build a barrier that works for all of those. The cities that do have barriers (e.g. London) only accept specific tickets on those lines and are large enough to run their own system.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by cr1895 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:02AM (#16376730)
> If you want to allow a mix of local tickets and rail tickets (to allow one fare for the whole journey) it'll be close to impossible to build a barrier that works for all of those.

Let's take Rotterdam or Amsterdam as an example. Both of these stations are closed off to non-ticket holders. You can access Dutch trains as well as international trains like Thalys to France and ICE to Germany.

Access is granted by individual tickets bought from the Dutch railway kiosks, by Dutch public transport cards, or by printed/digital QR-code tickets from any of the three rail companies. There is only one type of barrier. There are not isolated entrances for particular lines.

Maybe I misunderstand you, because what you say is close to impossible seems to work just fine in the NL.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by dx034 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:07AM (#16376794)
That works because the Netherlands standardised all tickets. German ICEs and Thalys are one of the rare exceptions and have a work-around. That needs one central body organising and standardising travel across the country. Few countries operate that way.

But you're right, it's actually not impossible just unlikely to happen. And I must say I really enjoyed the Dutch system where you don't have to print paper every time.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by Fnoord on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @05:21PM (#16380045)
> And I must say I really enjoyed the Dutch system where you don't have to print paper every time.

Heh, when we went Amsterdam - Berlin and vice versa we had to print our tickets. We even reserved seats. I quite like that system. One has to reserve in advance if one wants to save costs though.

The downside of the Dutch system is its easy for the government and railroad employees to check where you went. There was even a recent scandal about this, where an API was public which showed the transactions. The price of the transactions could be correlated with the cities the traveller traveled to and from.

In Germany, you have more anonymity thanks to being dependent on paying with cash and paper tickets.

Look, if, with exactly the same cost attached, people don't want that by choice... fair enough. However we don't that choice. And if you travel like 3 times a year a long trip through The Netherlands the 40% discount in down time hours is already worth it. Which is not anonymous but linked to your name. The anonymous card is a joke anyway; not my definition of anonymity that is for sure.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by bobthepanda on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @07:43PM (#16380990)
Don't boarding passes already work that way? If the airlines can do it I see no reason why railways couldn't.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by dx034 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @09:50AM (#16384394)
Only when airlines cooperate with agreements. The booking numbers are only unique within a system and if you fly on several airlines it's not uncommon to have different booking numbers for each airline. Their systems are often (not always) able to print all tickets in one go but I often had to get a new ticket at a stopover because of system issues.

Airports have contracts with each airline flying anyway so they can adapt their systems. Since aviation is a for-profit business (at least in theory), there's more money to do this than for tax funded public transport.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by Symbiote on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:13PM (#16377339)
London actually works fine. There were two public companies running railways: the national rail system, and the London system.

They designed a credit-card sized paper ticket. You can buy a ticket from any station in Britain, to a destination that requires you to change in London (e.g. Brighton), and your ticket will work to travel between the main stations in London. Or you can buy a ticket to a destination in London.

However, this does make some more novel ticket types difficult or impossible. In many other countries, you can buy tickets online and print them at home, or buy rail tickets with a smartphone. These aren't possible in Britain.

Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by walshemj on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:45PM (#16378145)
I think you can touch in and out in London with your phone now most people just use there debit or credit card as they almost all have NFC.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by Symbiote on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @07:08PM (#16380817)
You can, but you can't yet travel to Birmingham (or even Reading) with that system.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by justinhj on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:46AM (#16377115)
Vancouver BC now has this. A standard ticket that works throughout the city on all transit. I hate it though because we used to run on a trust system with no barriers and now there is congestion at busy times due to the barriers. It also reportedly did not raise revenues much anyway.
Re:Germany considers free public transport in fight to banis... by tialaramex on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @07:02PM (#16380793)
Actually London works because the barriers are required to be manned. So if 1% of users have crazy tickets (e.g. some international through exist that are valid across London for say Birmingham to Paris) the human just glances at their ticket and lets them through.

A typical barrier in London accepts: National Rail (orange) tickets that used to be labelled "Rail Settlement Plan", Oyster (a contactless travel pass used for most public transit in London), the various contactless payment standards (for your VISA etcetera) and its own pink tickets. But a human is always there if you have something else.