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Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by RobertoG on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @09:55AM (#16376115)
The article explain the real reason for almost all the cases of hyperinflation in history (maybe all of them):

"half of Hungary’s industrial capacity was destroyed and 90% was damaged. Transportation was difficult because most of the rail lines and locomotives had been destroyed. What remained had either been taken by the Nazis back to Germany or seized as reparations by the Russians."

How can you avoid inflation if your productive capacity is destroyed? You can't.

How can you avoid "to print" more money if that destruction of real capacity is making your money less and less valuable? You can't.

The exact same case happened in Germany (because the war and the war debt 'reparations') and Zimbabwe (because the agriculture capacity was destroyed by a redistribution of the land) (1).

Obviously, it's the real economy what is important.

(1).- http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=3773

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by whatshisface on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:16AM (#16376868)
There's a big difference between supply problems leading to inflation (which has an equilibrium,) and government problems leading to inflation (which has no fundamental limit.) In one case it's best to imagine it as the price of scarce goods rising, in the other it's best to picture it as the value of notes falling. Then, it's clear that one has a bound that the other doesn't.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by RobertoG on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:27AM (#16376955)
Maybe you can point me to an historical case of hyperinflation that was not due to a supply problem?, because I can't think of one.

Zimbabwe and similar are used continuously, by some people, as an example of the problem of running government deficits. That it's dishonest or ignorant.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by lnino on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:32PM (#16377514)
Brazil 1980-1994. The supply problem only started when the government decided to price control everything, before that you could easily buy all you needed, only you'd need spend all your wages the day they paid you, or you'd lose 30% of it every month. Inflation got to above 5000% a year, but there was never mass starvation like in other places. For a few months people couldn't buy any kind of meat or eggs, but things went back to "normal" when the government lifted price control. Source: I lived there, never skipped a meal. But I was quite shocked the first time I saw something costing the same as it had the previous week, it was in 1994.

The same happened in Venezuela, only they weren't able to control it. Inflation preceded the scarcity, and then scarcity made inflation even worse. And now they have mass starvation, no medicines etc.

That's fairly typical. Government prints money, there's hyper-inflation, government tries to fix things by banning marking prices up, people stop selling and manufacturing stuff; scarcity and having to go the black-market to get food makes inflation even worse.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by lnino on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:49PM (#16377668)
Also note that in both cases (Venezuela and Brazil) there was no external force (war or commercial ban) that artificially reduced supply. At the time Brazil started experiencing hyper-inflation, it was already one of the world's top beef producers, still beef was up 5000% a year. Venezuela was selling it's oil at peak prices to the US when their hyper-inflation started. For a while gas was the only affordable product in the country, because the production kept pace with the money printing. There's just no explanation for inflation in Latin American countries that haven't seen a war or major natural disaster in 100 years, other than bad spending policies. The government themselves admitted that in most cases, and were able to get inflation back in track with massive cuts in spending.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by crdoconnor on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:55PM (#16378234)
Hyperinflation only kicked in in Venezuela after the plunge in oil prices, but up until that point industry in Venezuela had been dying.

In Brazil it followed and was mainly triggered by the 1970s energy crisis.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by lnino on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:24PM (#16378520)
There was already super high inflation in both cases before the supply crises. It's just it got way worse because the government reacted to the threat by printing even more money to pay for its spending. Unless you think 100% a year is not hyper-inflation. And how the hell an energy crisis can get the price of beef to go up 5000% a year, in a country that's a leader in beef production?
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by crdoconnor on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:47PM (#16378743)
50% monthly inflation is a common definition. It's around the point where inflation doesn't tend to ever come down again.

Iraq has had 300% a year at one point and it came down.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by RobertoG on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:52PM (#16377690)
Unfortunately I can't discuss Brazil because I have not information, but thanks for pointing it, I will try to look into it.

Venezuela seems to me a similar case to Zimbabwe. Their only asset (oil, agriculture in the case of Zimbabwe) was taken from the hands of the people that was exploiting it (if that it's fair is another question) and the production plunged (1).

It didn't help that the price of oil dropped at the same time.

So, a supply problem also.

The consequences: they can't get foreign currency. As they don't produce almost anything else than oil they have to import everything. The value of their currency goes down, they have "to print" money to keep the government working. Hyperinflation. They try price control (that don't work very well).

If there is a "fairly typical" process for hyperinflation is that one.

(1). https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/crude-oil-production

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by lnino on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:33PM (#16378046)
Your graph shows a decline in production in the past year or so. The country has been experiencing major economical hardships for several years. The downturn in oil prices only made worse something that was already awful.

Take a look at: https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/inflation-cpi

Of course 800% is worse than 100%.

But how do you explain 30%-100% inflation at a time when oil was at peak price?

It's simply impossible not to have inflation when you're printing money and flooding the economy with it -- no matter the supply side.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by tcbawo on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @06:48PM (#16380714)
Inflation seems to only kick in when it enters the money cycle (non-banking sectors). The US Fed built up massive amounts of securities holdings over the last 10 years which injected a lot of money into the economy. However, inflation mostly never materialized because banks held onto that money instead of lending it out.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by lnino on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:18PM (#16377906)
Hyper-inflation started before the oil price dropped.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by Jtsummers on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:53PM (#16378211)
Venezuelan hyperinflation began in 2015 [0]. Crude prices were on their way down at that point [1]. And Venezuelan oil production has been dropping continuously since 2006 [2]. The average reduction in production since 2006 was 3.17%. The overall reduction was 27.8% in that time period. Since I only found production numbers through 2016, you can see that there was an 8.85% drop in production between 2015 and 2016. If prices had stayed high the reduced production capacity wouldn't have hit so hard. If production capacity had stayed high the price drop wouldn't have mattered as much. Unfortunately they hit at the same time.

The oil situation probably became the tipping point when compounded with their monetary policies and price control efforts.

[0] https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/inflation-cpi

[1] http://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-char...

[2] https://ycharts.com/indicators/venezuela_oil_production (barrels per day, average across the year, goes through 2016)

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by lnino on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:40PM (#16378687)
So, 30% a year is just business as usual? Yes, oil hit then hard. But they already had pretty high inflation before. Not sure what counts as "hyper". Certainly having my salary go down 10% a year automatically is not a reasonable proposition.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by Jtsummers on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:49PM (#16378764)
I agree with your general point, monetary policy was the cause of much of the inflation and had they not mismanaged their oil industry they may have been able to survive with the bad monetary policy much longer. And better monetary policy may have put them in a position to handle the issues in the oil industry. But the immediate need to print more money was the drop in production capacity and price, which is what led to the hyperinflation at the end of 2015 to present.

Hyperinflation is usually very, very high inflation. Original definition was 50% monthly inflation (this would be 600% annual, higher actually since it would be compounding). 30% annual inflation isn't hyperinflation (though it's certainly not good, and after several years could be catastrophic on its own).

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by RobertoG on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:32PM (#16378042)
But not the drop in oil production:

https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/crude-oil-production

https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/inflation-cpi

Please, for a better comparative, view it with the 5 years window for the graphs.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by lnino on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:39PM (#16378091)
Take a look at other countries historical inflation too. I bet you'll see 50%-100% inflation rates before the supply problems started.

Only after the government realizes they can't indefinitely finance their spending by printing money, then they turn to seizing wealth production, or do stupid things like price control. Then things get really ugly.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by infowl on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:21PM (#16378499)
Do you have proof?

It's difficult to tell if statements are true without hard evidence and data to back the claim.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by lnino on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:33PM (#16378610)
The burden of proof is on the side making the nonsensical claim that hyper-inflation is always caused by supply problems, never ever by monetary policy. I've been nice enough to provide some first-hand reports and a few pointers. I'm not your google. If you'd rather remain believing in Keynesian fairy tales, so be it.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by gus_massa on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @07:41PM (#16380977)
Argentina 1989-1990. I don't remember a supply problem. The Wikipedia in English doesn't have a detailed article.

Article in Spanish https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiperinflaci%C3%B3n_argentina_...

Autotransalation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev...

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by whatshisface on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:43AM (#16377084)
Hyperinflation can't happen without a government problem, because if they were to just do nothing the prices would reach equilibrium with the supply scarcity and then stop rising. The real question is, what happens to governments that causes them to respond to supply problems with inflationary policy?

Edit: Nonexistent government is also a government problem - I didn't mean it in that way, I meant it in the sense of "problem related to government!"

As for "how can you keep things running when the supply-side collapses," you could replace inflation with taxes. You could achieve the same re-assignment of value explicitly instead of implicitly: people would end up just as robbed, but the currency wouldn't have to end up devalued. (This might end up helping the economy and making people less poor in the end, since it would mean that you still get to think about your inflationary/deflationary policy decisions. Essentially nobody would choose the regressiveness/progressiveness profile of hyperinflation if given the option, and would instead probably prefer to arrange the necessary pain in some other way.)

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by panarky on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:11PM (#16377321)
> Hyperinflation can't happen without a government problem

Somalia hasn't had a national government in 25 years, so there's no central authority to regulate the money supply or print currency.

Consequently, 98% of the bank notes in circulation are now poor-quality counterfeits, and buyers and sellers know they're fake.

The market has reached an equilibrium, with a single 1000-shilling denomination that trades at approximately the cost to print it.

Hyperinflation ends when the value of the currency equals the cost to print it, and when the population won't accept arbitrarily larger denominations.

You don't need a government to create a useful currency. Hyperinflation can begin and end with or without a government.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by RobertoG on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:00PM (#16377229)
>"Hyperinflation can't happen without a government problem"

I suppose that what you mean is that hyperinflation will stop at some point, not that it "can't happen". If you destroy the 80% of the economy what follows is hyperinflation. Never mind if you are in the gold standard, a fiat system or whatever.

>"The real question is, what happens to governments that causes them to respond to supply problems with inflationary policy?"

What happens is, it seems to me, obvious. You have to keep the services running, so, you have to pay people, but the money is not valuable anymore, so, you have to give more.

What it seems that you are insinuating is that a country would be better off if the government would not try to keep the country running. I don't think this is the case. But I suppose that it is the real question.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by wz1000 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:23AM (#16376928)
As long as the government has the power to tax, it can shrink the supply of currency as much as it wants. There is no such "easy fix" for supply problems.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by dnautics on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:31AM (#16376984)
But why would it ever shrink the supply of money? Much easier to take from the working class and give to cronies, then blame it on greed and capitalism.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by RobertoG on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:52AM (#16377158)
Normally, the cronies are rich people.

Even if inflation could be advantageous, sometimes, for some people, hyperinflation don't benefit anyone, but it benefit rich people the less.

If you have liquid or even financial assets, you don't want inflation.

If somebody owns you money you don't want inflation.

If you want to hire cheap you don't want government spending in the economy and making workers more expensive. So, you have an interest in scare people about become the next Zimbabwe and all that.

We can be sure that the cronies are already in charge when a little inflation is sold as worse than unemployment for instance.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by mywittyname on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:52PM (#16377688)
Discriminatory tax policies are very effective at enriching the wealthy.

If you think about it, being rich or wealthy is really just having a disproportionate share of the economic output of a region. You increase this share by taking in more money from other people than you spend. Most of the time, this happens through returns on investments, but getting the government to tax someone else more than they do yourself achieves the same result (more relative assets).

This is part of the reason lobbying has such a great ROI for companies.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by jganetsk on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @04:45PM (#16379743)
The supply of money = government debt + private bank credit. So if the government runs a budget surplus or private bank credit shrinks (more old debts are paid off than new debts are issued) then the supply of money shrinks. This happens in actual economies.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by wz1000 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:19PM (#16378476)
So that its currency has value? The government does not benefit from hyper inflation.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by dnautics on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @03:39PM (#16379167)
The whole point of hyperinflation is to devalue sovereign debt. The ONLY entity that benefits from hyperinflation is the government.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by jganetsk on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @04:53PM (#16379806)
Causality is backward here, really. Government debt and money are effectively the same thing. Growing government debt is growth in the money supply, which can lead to inflation.

Governments don't try to devalue sovereign debt, they try to pay off their foreign debts. For that, they buy up all foreign currency in the market, sending the value of their currency plummeting.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by wz1000 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @03:55PM (#16379278)
The government doesn't benefit from hyperinflation, it benefits from wiping out its debt. Taxing away the excess money after it has finished doing that prevents hyperinflation while still reducing debts.

The government has the most to lose from hyperinflation, because without currency anyone will accepts, the government is severely reduced in power. With a healthy currency, the government has nearly unlimited ability to finance itself.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by jnordwick on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:09PM (#16377305)
When the problem is too much money chasing too few goods, regardless of the cause you can drain the oversupply of money. If supply constricts, then you constrict the money supply. One way you can always do that is buy borrowing, taxing, or selling and extinguishing the money received. The fed does a version of this to target the overnight rate.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by RobertoG on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @12:34PM (#16377526)
I understand how taxing reduce money in the economy but I don't understand your reference to the overnight rate.

My understanding is that the overnight rate gives the fed the power of making more expensive for banks to give credits, but only if there is a deficit of money, in the inter-bank market, respect the demand of credits by firms and families.

Are you talking about that?

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by jnordwick on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @01:22PM (#16377944)
The fed funds rate is basically banks borrowing from each other to meet nightly reserve requirements. The fed open market iterations steps in and buys/sells that overnight debt creating/destroying money in the process. After QE it now does a lot more of this on the long end too. The fed only really influences that rate, and it does go off script.

The link between the overnight rate and longer maturities has always been tenuous. Banks borrow I the short end, consumers on the longer end. Before QE, the Fed often had a difficult time pushing the long end around, but with QE it just did it direct.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by nerfhammer on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:21PM (#16378501)
> How can you avoid inflation if your productive capacity is destroyed? You can't.

Uh, what? economic contraction causes deflation, not inflation.

if no one has a job and weighs spending every cent very carefully, businesses have to cut prices in order to sell anything. Which means they have to cut what they pay everyone else, and so on. Or say if everyone loan out lots of money and now realizes that those loans are never going to be paid back, they realize that they have a lot less money than they thought they did, and that means they can't repay others, and so on.

"productive capacity" being lost doesn't mean your "money" is "less and less valuable". No, it means money is extremely valuable, because you don't expect to be able to get any more of it. Everyone has a lot less money than they expected to have. It's a shortage of money, which therefore becomes more valuable. That's deflation.

For example, during the Great Depression the US experienced 30% deflation.

Hyperinflation where the nominal value of currency decreases by thousandsfold is always caused by inflationary finance where a treasury resorts to fund operations by simply printing money. Though that could happen because they were militarily forced to and could not collect taxes or sell bonds. Everyone has too much nominal currency relative to real valued goods and is afraid the nominal currency won't be accepted for the same amount of real value tomorrow.

Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by Arwill on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @03:00PM (#16378845)
When production is gone, there are no goods produced. When there is a shortage of goods, you are willing to pay more for what there is, so does everyone else, and that leads to the spiral of money becoming worthless. What's the money worth when you can't buy anything with it?
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by RobertoG on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:42PM (#16378697)
So, in your world view, if tomorrow a catastrophe destroyed half of the productive capacity of the USA, the US Dollar would double its value?
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by yuhong on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @05:18PM (#16380029)
Yea, the current US economy is debt-based with government bonds, which is the main way they are able to import more goods without hyperinflation.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by bubbleRefuge on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @11:07AM (#16376792)
nice. upvote. hopefully Bernie runs again and Stefanie Kelton gets a platform to bring MMT ideas to the masses.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by piyh on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @02:30PM (#16378573)
Nothing against Bernie, but the dude is 76. I'd prefer someone who will statistically be alive for more than 10 years.
Re:The Worst Hyperinflations in History: Hungary in 1946 (2014) by tim333 on Wednesday February 14, 2018 @10:02PM (#16381601)
Statistically he should be alive another 14 years or so https://www.johnhancockinsurance.com/life/life-expectancy-to...