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Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by anigbrowl on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:03PM (#16363905)
There is far less competition than it appears, which is why brands are so important for maintaining the fictional appearance of it. This is why some of the left say "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" = while it's a crappy slogan, the reality is that many well-meaning consumers who try to vote with their wallets are just picking 'nicer' brands but still giving their money to the same places, and their buying decisions have far more influence on the way goods and services are marketed than the way they are produced.

Now, in some places you can absolutely vote with your dollars, buying locally produced food and keeping the money circulating within your community and so forth. But that's also a bit of a luxury choice - you're willing to pay a bit more, and have the know-how to figure out the difference between a genuine small business that's doing right by its employees/the environment/whatever you care about, and a hip brand that is associated with those values but actually yet another front for a large corporate concern. Many people don't have those choices available (their only buying options maybe through superstores like Walmart or Dollar Tree), or lack the insight to see through the multiple layers of marketing and the economic pros and cons of our complex business infrastructure.

Unilever and other big conglomerates do actually put their logo on the products so if you pay careful attention you can see that information just by inspecting the packaging at the supermarket, but to most people that's just another certification stamp.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by ATsch on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:26PM (#16364271)
My understanding is that the "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" phrase is meant as a direct antithesis of the "liberal idea that there is no such thing as a systemic issue, it's just that the wrong people are in charge". It is, I feel, often interpreted as unnecessarily defeatist, but I instead interpret it not as that you should just give your money to the worst company you can because it's all evil capitalism anyway, but that these changes alone will not solve the underlying and inherent issues of the system.

It's interesting that you mention these 'greenwashing' marketing tactics as well, as I have never really drawn a line between these two phenomena. I am always surprised to hear how many very smart and un-naive people fall for transparent tricks like this. It seems that, like Harley stating that they don't sell motorcycles, they sell a lifestyle, these companies could be said to sell neo-liberalism along with their products. No need to worry about the fact that a system where corporations are destroying the planet might not be perfect, I bought from a company that donated $100k to save the Orangutans once etc.

Note also that the worshipping around Elon Musk is much the same thing, just for techies.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by wickawic on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @12:01AM (#16364882)
Nit: neoliberalism means different things depending on context, but it really doesn’t mean “new-fangled leftism”.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by wz1000 on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @02:20AM (#16365322)
Neoliberalism(as leftists use the word) is used quite appropriately here. See Zizek:

> Let’s turn to the high point of our consumerism. Let me take a drink.

> Starbucks coffee. I’m regularly drinking it, I must admit it. But are we aware, that when we buy a cappuccino from Starbucks, we also buy quite a lot of ideology? Which ideology?

> You know, when you enter a Starbucks store, it’s usually always displayed in some posters, their message, which is: “Yes, our cappuccino is more expensive than others,” but, then comes the story.

> “We give 1% all our income to some Guatemalan children to keep them healthy, for the water supply for some Saharan farmer, or to save the forest, to enable organic growing for coffee, or whatever or whatever.”

> Now, I admire the ingenuity of this solution. In the old days of pure, simple consumerism, you bough a product, and then you felt bad. “My God, I’m just a consumerist, while people are starving in Africa . . .”

> So the idea is that you had to do something to counteract your pure, destructive consumerism. For example, I don’t know, you contribute to charity and so on.

> What Starbucks enables you, is to be a consumerist, without any bad conscience, because the price for the countermeasure, for fighting consumerism, is already included into the price of a commodity. Like, you pay a little bit more, and you’re not just a consumerist, but you do also your duty towards the environment, the poor, starving people in Africa, and so on and so on.

> It’s, I think, the ultimate form of consumerism.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by wickawic on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @08:55AM (#16367094)
I was unaware that zizek called this form of consumerism neoliberalism. I was only aware of the economic definition of the term relating to Keynesian economics and deregulation and the like. The reason I piped up is because that definition is really more in line with American right-wing policies (although Democrats seem to have little issue getting on board...)
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by TremendousJudge on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @12:46PM (#16369063)
In America, "Liberals" are "The Left", while in other countries, "Liberals" are "The Right". Many internet discussions on economic policy fall into misunderstanding due to these types of terminology differences
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by fenwick67 on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @01:06PM (#16369251)
Yeah the word "Liberal" is vague enough that it has a wikipedia disambiguation page with 12 different political idealogies. I refuse to use it and usually avoid conversations involving it because of how many things it can mean.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by ATsch on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @09:26AM (#16367304)
What makes you think that is what I think it means? I'm not a native speaker, perhaps I could improve that section a bit for future readers.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by Faark on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @08:54AM (#16367088)
> Note also that the worshipping around Elon Musk is much the same thing, just for techies.

Huh, you mean Musk doesn't actually push R&D more than other car manufacturers / launch providers?

Its only natural those marketing tactics work. Who the hell does have the time to research environmental impact when buying a $4 brush. Don't forget to also research its durability, health impacts, social ethics, and so on. Apart from "evil" gov regulations, consumer organizations can help you to at least some degree. But i doubt that is enough for a good society.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:05PM (#16364192)
> the reality is that many well-meaning consumers who try to vote with their wallets are just picking 'nicer' brands but still giving their money to the same places

Exactly. I can't think of a better example of this than Dove branding (love-your-body-in-any-shape-or-size feminism) compared to Axe (our deodorant will make hot chicks love you).

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by schoen on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:17PM (#16364248)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_(brand) is owned by a parent company that owns a lot of dairy brands, but their marketing emphasizes feeling good about consuming a completely non-dairy product (which some customers, like me, do because of objections to the dairy industry).

You can see some of this on display at

https://silk.com/our-story/history

https://silk.com/healthy-living/plant-based-diet

Notice the Danone link at the bottom of those pages (!!). (Americans will know their yogurt brand as "Dannon".)

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by latch on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @12:47AM (#16365011)
The money might ultimately end up in the bank account of the same company that runs veal farms, but it's still sending a trackable signal.

Same with cars, buy a Bolt or a Prius and the money still goes to GM and Toyota. But the signal it sends is pretty clear (and it's clear car companies are seeing consumers voting with their wallets).

This is how it should work. We all want change to happen quickly and we want companies who suddenly (20 years ago, milk wasn't cruel) find themselves on the wrong side of morality to be punished. But it's more reasonable (and probably better) for this to happen gradually.

That some brands are less transparent than Bolt == GM, Prius == Toyota, doesn't seem materially relevant.

(I realize you weren't necessarily passing judgement, just some facts (which I didn't know!), so I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just injecting my opinion onto your facts).

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by schoen on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @02:01AM (#16365267)
In fact, I basically agree with your view most of the time. Thanks for adding your thoughts.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by schoen on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @12:20PM (#16368807)
A counterpoint is basically about giving companies resources that they might use to cross-subsidize advertising or lobbying on behalf of their other business units, affecting the demand, political environment, or cultural environment that those other business units face. In the electric car example, maybe some of the revenue from electric car sales allows manufacturers to lobby on emissions regulations in a way that some of the electric car buyers might strongly disagree with.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by rch on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:26PM (#16364498)
When people I know "vote with their wallet" they are buying handmade soaps at the farmer's market (for example), not Dove. Even brands like Organic Valley and Patagonia are probably only moderately better than average.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by thomasz on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @02:31AM (#16365369)
This is not how the argument against “ethical consumption” goes. There never will be anything close to enough soap artisans to meet even a tiny fraction of the demand; and even if production would be greatly expanded, the product would still be unobtainable fore a large majority. Therefore, buying handmade soap from the farmers market will never be more than a fashion statement.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by fjsolwmv on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:38PM (#16364542)
Dove is for women. Axe is for men.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by fenwick67 on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @01:09PM (#16369275)
Ironically there are "Axe for Women" and "Dove Men" products.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by mcbits on Monday February 12, 2018 @11:02PM (#16364645)
> There is far less competition than it appears

And then looking at who owns all the huge companies: Vanguard, Wellington, BlackRock, State Street, Fidelity, etc.

Who owns BlackRock? PNC, Vanguard, State Street, Wellington, Fidelity, etc.

Who is this PNC? BlackRock, Vanguard, Fidelity, State Street, Wellington, etc.

It's just a big incestuous orgy of pension fund managers pretending to diversify and skimming a little off each trade.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by fjsolwmv on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @06:33PM (#16371965)
Huh? Are you confusing brokerages with mutual fund?
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by jjeaff on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:23PM (#16364004)
And you have to read the fine print carefully too. When I forst moved to California, I was buying Knudsen brand dairy products thinking I was buying some kind of local product. But upon closer inspection, I found that it is actually just another brand owned by Kraft.

I still buy it, but I know to treat it like a commodity product and buy when the sale is good rather than a premium product that someone is actually taking pride in and might be worth the premium occasionally.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @01:47AM (#16365228)
Similar to Anheuser-Busch selling off-label "microbrews" with no information on their true origin other than "Brewed in St. Louis".
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by usaphp on Monday February 12, 2018 @11:22PM (#16364733)
> and their buying decisions have far more influence on the way goods and services are marketed than the way they are produced.

This is gold.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by Vinnl on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @02:35AM (#16365378)
> buying decisions have far more influence on the way goods and services are marketed than the way they are produced.

But if I buy Fair Trade products, even if they're from Unilever/P&G/whatever, don't I still influence the way they are produced? Sure, Unilever would still be producing non-Fair Trade products, but only because other people are buying those.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by lmm on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @07:30AM (#16366607)
> their buying decisions have far more influence on the way goods and services are marketed than the way they are produced.

The brand has to reflect the reality eventually; if Dove was being made in sweatshops (for example) that would be a news story sooner or later, in a way that it wouldn't for a brand that didn't have the same image. Likewise if you work for a company whose whole image is x, the easiest way to project it is simply to be x; it takes a lot more effort to fake a position you don't believe in than it does to simply believe that position. Even if the CEO is operating on pure cynicism, if the employees are constantly told that they're working for a company with strong ethical values they'll start to believe that and that will affect how they make decisions in their work.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by flamedoge on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:01PM (#16364169)
I wonder what the effect of limiting a conglomerate to 5 companies would be.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by brownbat on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:42PM (#16364343)
Eternal court battles about what counts as a company to start.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by semi-extrinsic on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @01:21AM (#16365138)
You'd rather have to put some limit on how big a company could be, in terms of revenue/etc., and also limit the ability of people or organizations to own multiple companies.

But that's called communism and is frowned upon in most capitalist growth-must-be-eternal countries.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by jiggunjer on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:39PM (#16364330)
none. A company can own multiple brands.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by astura on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @09:03AM (#16367134)
And indeed they do - look at the beer market, AB InBev - one company, has ~500 brands.

No that's not a typo, the number is around five hundred.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by fjsolwmv on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:39PM (#16364548)
Only works care about competition. Consumers care about having good choices. Why should they care who the investors are?