Is veganism "eliminating the consumption of any animal products" or "reducing consumption of products that are produced due to animal exploitation and suffering". In the former case, honey is clearly not allowed, but in the latter it could be. Beekeepers and their bees can definitely be more of a symbiotic relationship than an exploitative one.

I see both sides of the debate; at the very least it's not as black-and-white as most other animal products.

> Beekeepers and their bees can definitely be more of a symbiotic relationship than an exploitative one.

Seriously? Beekeeping can be quite stressful for the bees, in some cases colonies are pruned. And the keeper gets to make money selling the honey that the bees did happily give up (the try to sting anyone taking their honey).

This is exploitation by definition. Calling it a symbiosis is euphemistic.

There are links elsewhere in this thread that defend honey as vegan. I'm neither a vegan nor an expert in beekeeping, so it's not an argument I'm interested in having.

No worries. Not having it than. It's just to classify that relationship as symbiotic which makes my question your understanding of the word symbiotic.

> Considering honey to be vegan sounds a bit fringe, to be honest.

Maybe on a "percentage of vegans" level, but on a logical level, why? Humans provide housing, (supplemental) food, protection, medical attention to bees in exchange for some of their honey production.

The bees don't really get to consciously choose, sure, but you could make an argument that the Whole Foods employees selling you tofu don't get much choice in whether or not to work, either.

You could make the same arguments about milk though, right? We provide housing, food, protection, etc. to cows in exchange for their milk production.

I guess with cows, it's a little beyond what they'd normally do (constantly lactating is not the natural state of the cow), so there's that distinction.

I'm not a vegan, so I haven't spent any serious time considering this, but I bet there's an argument to be made that bees would "rather" not have their food store pilfered :)

> You could make the same arguments about milk though, right?

Sort of, but with an important distinction - we have to keep the dairy cows having babies so they're making milk. The female calves have to be separated and fed formula (so we can get the milk; likely traumatic for the babies). The male calves are either killed or raised for veal, which is going to present... issues for vegans.

It's fairly common to kill off bee colonies for the winter in apiculture, though, isn't it? Seems like a similar general idea.

I can't find anything in a quick Google search indicating that's any sort of common practice. Most appear to recommend feeding supplemental sugar to prep for overwintering.

Not mentioned in this guide to prepping for winter at all: https://pollinator.cals.cornell.edu/sites/pollinator.cals.co...

Presumably apiculture occasionally involves accidentally squashing and killing some bees as you slide comb frames in and out? And I think bee keepers amputate wings from queen bees.

I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but if you prioritise not harming animals in order to get food or other products from them then this doesn't seem compatible.

I'd imagine harvesting a field of soybeans involves a lot more animal deaths than the occasional squished honeybee.

> Humans provide housing, (supplemental) food, protection, medical attention to bees in exchange for some of their honey production.

That's also true of animals raised for meat: most of them are raised on farms and would not have lived, at least in those numbers, in the wild. Many species / breeds exist specifically because of farming, and benefit from the shelter, resources, and medical attention that humans give.

See also https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3105

(I would be curious to see if there are people who only eat farm-raised animals and refuse to eat wild animals; there is some logical consistency there, but I've seen a lot of people with the opposite preference.)

We don't kill the bees to harvest honey, though, which is a pretty massive distinction.