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Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by hux_ on Monday February 05, 2018 @03:11AM (#16307364)
Religion gets spread the same way. Some people benefit.
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by simonh on Monday February 05, 2018 @03:30AM (#16307438)
That’s a very specific, very broad claim. Can you explain how (apparently all) religions structure and market their pyramidal incentive schemes? I’m not currently active in any organised religion, but I have been for long periods of time and didn’t really notice any pyramidal incentives. In fact there didn’t seem to be much in the way of proselytising at all and I was certainly not involved in doing so. What was I missing?
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by fpig on Monday February 05, 2018 @07:57AM (#16308464)
You're right, relatively few adults these days convert because someone "sold" them on the religion and in my majority-catholic country the church doesn't even make any serious attempt to do this or tell their followers to do this.

But christianity and islam are still the biggest MLM schemes in the world, however they work slightly differently.

Instead of being incentivized to recruit people around you, you are incentivized to create your own recruits by having as many children as possible and it's absolutely expected that you will "recruit" them. Also they love proselytizing (religious education etc) in schools, even though they don't care about doing it to adults. They know children are softer targets, and if they don't convert them before they reach adulthood, they're way less likely to succeed.

Basically it's all about proselytizing to children instead of adults. Get them while they're young!

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by gamechangr on Monday February 05, 2018 @06:30PM (#16313229)
Lumping "Christianity and Islam" reminds me of the craziness that passes as intellectualism on hacker news. "Mother Theresa and Hitler" believe in concentrations camps...come on? Maybe one more than the other?

At the very minimum, you should take a world religion class if you want to be taken seriously???

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by fpig on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @05:32AM (#16315424)
I don't need to take a "world religion class" to know how incredibly retarded the religion I grew up in is.

And your post is for sure a shining example of "intellectualism".

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by gamechangr on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @02:09PM (#16318618)
You grew up in both?

Or just like grouping two beliefs with about half the worlds population together?

Google says there are 2.2 Billion practicing Christians and 1.8 Billion practicing Islam.

How many Billion people are you referring to when you use the word "retarded"?

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by fpig on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @05:44PM (#16320641)
I group them together as the biggest MLM schemes in the world which sounds pretty much correct according to your own numbers

They are grouped together by size and by the fact they both prey on children as their main recruitment targets

Do you think "christanity and islam" should never be together in a sentence just because they differ in some aspects that are irrelevant to this conversation?

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by gamechangr on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @11:32PM (#16322255)
"to know how incredibly retarded"

Who were you referencing that's incredibly retarded?

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by simonh on Monday February 05, 2018 @08:21AM (#16308562)
I get that you don't like religion, but how is it a pyramid scheme where e.g. Humanism, political beliefs, a love of Country Music, or any one of a million other beliefs or preferences aren't? It seems to me to be an extraordinarily specific and weak claim.
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by fpig on Monday February 05, 2018 @08:23AM (#16308569)
Because the followers are supposed to make kids and recruit them into the church at the earliest possible age. They don't want it to be about preference, they want to "lock them in" before they start thinking for themselves. This is literally a part of the catholic religion, you're expected to try to have children and expected to recruit them.

It is not a part of any of your examples.

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by simonh on Monday February 05, 2018 @10:32AM (#16309345)
Teaching children your culture is a pyramid selling scheme? Got it.
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by AstralStorm on Monday February 05, 2018 @12:45PM (#16310460)
Religion is not the same as culture, and definitely is not the entirety of it. Nor should be.

Anabaptist out of Christian sects had the right idea in my opinion.

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by andy_ppp on Monday February 05, 2018 @03:38AM (#16307472)
Hmmm... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/201...

NB I hate Google for breaking the above URL but I’m tired of fixing them...

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by simonh on Monday February 05, 2018 @08:24AM (#16308573)
Some religions are wealthy and maybe you don't like that, fine. How is religion in general a form of pyramid selling though? I'm sure some religions are organised like that, or are used to run such schemes, but the claim seemed to be about religion in general. One particular religion, or groups of religions wasn't specified.
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by andy_ppp on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @12:58AM (#16314691)
The reward for the Ponzi scheme is the ultimate prize isn’t it; who wouldn’t want to live in paradise forever. All religions run this scheme, as far as I’m aware?
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by poizan42 on Monday February 05, 2018 @06:06AM (#16308047)
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by willvarfar on Monday February 05, 2018 @03:49AM (#16307521)
Well, those who spread the religion gain ego boosting status as preachers or such and, often, financial reward too. Lots of vicars with posh cars and TV drives to buy the bishop a private jet etc.
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by matt4077 on Monday February 05, 2018 @05:21AM (#16307859)
Bishops don't have private planes. The catholic church has its own set of faults, and it is very rich. But they also have smart PR people, and a pope who doesn't like luxury, and they keep their bishops on a short leash.

Edit: I thought "bishop" was a specifically catholic title. It appears that some televangelists may have misappropriated not just the faith, but also the title.

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by tialaramex on Monday February 05, 2018 @07:23AM (#16308341)
Most people think "Pope" is a Catholic title too, but Discordians believe all people (not even just Discordians) are Popes, and the crossover means that members of the Church of the SubGenius often acknowledge such Popes too.

Anyway, Catholicism is a lot bigger than the Roman Catholic Church. You have other very explicitly Catholic churches such as the Eastern Orthodox Church, and you also have faiths like Anglicanism, which are a weird hybrid where most (Roman) Catholics would consider them protestant, but they refer to themselves internally as a "Holy Catholic church", they have Bishops too (but no Pope, their spiritual head is for historical reasons the Queen of England) and so on.

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by willvarfar on Monday February 05, 2018 @05:37AM (#16307921)
Just a quick googling for private plane bishops http://dustoffthebible.com/Blog-archive/2015/10/28/15-religi... - not Catholic, but still..
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by simonh on Monday February 05, 2018 @08:25AM (#16308583)
You are completely missing the point. I could say that of politics, academia, capitalism, country music. What has any of this got to do with pyramid selling?
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by willvarfar on Monday February 05, 2018 @09:41AM (#16308985)
No, not deliberately.

The thing about religion is that believers try to recruit others and get their standing from that, whether its the small scale parents recruiting their children and deriving authority over their children from that, or those born again who feel compelled to save others. You can't say the same about politics or academia or country music - its not like everyone who goes to university has an interest in educating the unwashed masses; generally, the incentive for someone with a degree is to wish they were rarer! ;)

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by simonh on Monday February 05, 2018 @10:39AM (#16309396)
Not all religious people try to recruit others, I never have, and not all of them indoctrinate or coerce it into their children. I haven't. Some do, sure. That's on them, but 'religion' is a huge category.

For what it's worth, my religious beliefs are shall we say pretty individual. I have no reason to protect, support or defend any other religions. I regard many of them to be pretty appalling in a variety of ways and some of them certainly do engage in aggressive proselytising, deceptive practices and such. But not all of them. In general, specific examples aside, the things I have against them have nothing to do with pyramid selling though and lazy opportunistic slurring like this does nobody any favours.

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by ainiriand on Monday February 05, 2018 @03:55AM (#16307538)
I was tempted to downvote you because of the apparent forced comparison. Care to explain a bit more? I find that comparison a bit offensive even if I am not a christian myself.
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by hux_ on Monday February 05, 2018 @04:47AM (#16307740)
Didn't mean to offend your faith. I am talking about the way faith spreads and not about faith itself.

People who need faith are very similar to people who need a job or an income. They are all suffering. That is the commonality. One way faith spreads, if you are a student of history, is to claim faith is a "shortcut" fix to suffering. But if you know your faith, you know faith is hard work/just like keeping a job or earning a living honestly.

That doesn't stop people from selling a "shortcut". Because selling a shortcut is easy. Neither does it stop people from buying into it.

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by yorwba on Monday February 05, 2018 @05:27AM (#16307880)
Although the reasons people join a religion may be similar, there is a qualitative difference between the spread of religions and pyramid schemes.

In a pyramid scheme, the participants are mostly busy recruiting new members, and the tangible benefits of membership are tied to the stream of recruits. Once that stream stops growing, people start dropping out and the same pyramid structure that accelerated the growth also leads to accelerated collapse.

Religions that have endured over generations have a very different balance of promises and recruitments. Instead of large immediate rewards that can't be kept up over the long term, they rely on hopes about the indefinite future (e.g. paradise) or benefits that are proportional to the size of the community, not it's growth over time (e.g. caring for their sick). Religions do rely on missionarizing to grow, but they can remain stable even without growth, and mostly propagate themselves by parents converting their children.

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by viraptor on Monday February 05, 2018 @06:17AM (#16308091)
> Instead of large immediate rewards that can't be kept up over the long term, they rely on hopes about the indefinite future (e.g. paradise)

I think that's ignoring many immediate things people get from religion. Immediate sense of belonging, getting to listen to someone who's "got life figured out", getting some motivation, and many other reasons. Whether that's provided by a megachurch, a local friendly priest, an MLM convention with a charismatic speaker, or another way doesn't matter. I met a masonic priest who joined the group because his wife died and he needed people who would take him out for dinner once a week.

I come from a country that's virtually 100% Catholic (or at least was) and don't believe that many people really cared about the final paradise. Or at least that wasn't really the reason they turned up to the church every week.

Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by yorwba on Monday February 05, 2018 @06:43AM (#16308199)
I classified those "immediate things people get from religion" under "benefits that are proportional to the size of the community". The point I was trying to make is that successful religions avoid the cycle of frenzied growth and collapse by not making promises that are likely to disappoint their adherents.
Re:Pyramid schemes causing social harm in China – crackdowns... by ainiriand on Monday February 05, 2018 @07:45AM (#16308426)
Thank you very much for your clarification. I think I know what you mean.