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Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by gaius on Friday February 02, 2018 @08:37AM (#16290383)
willing to pay more taxes than you are legally required to

There is a material difference between that and actively seeking loopholes that are not available to ordinary people. Ikea is only possible because of the physical and legal infrastructure paid for by those ordinary people after all.

Not that they will do anything of course, the Viking spirit is long dead.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Friday February 02, 2018 @08:57AM (#16290496)
If you aren't seeking out the loopholes that apply to you, then you are paying more in taxes than you are legally required to.

"legally required to" does not incur a balancing test between what is practicable vs the time it takes. If you're a regular, mid-income citizen, then there isn't likely to be a good ROI on hiring a dedicated accountant to find you loopholes. If you're making $200k a year, and you save 10%, hooray, you've saved $20k through tax avoidance, but since a CPA's average salary is ~$60k, then you'll have lost $40k. Perhaps there's a middle ground where you could employ a CPA for a finite amount of time for them to find you the obvious savings, and many people do. It's how companies like H&R Block exist.

If your income is $2,000,000 a year, then it is cost effective to hire the guy who can save you 12% a year vs. the guy who can save you 10% a year, even if the 12% guy costs 10% more, because while 10% guy saves you $200k (e.g., worth the $60k salary), while the 12% guy saves you $240k. Even though his $66k salary is $6k more than the 10% guy, he's saved you $40k more, which nets out to an extra $34k.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but what I'm hoping to illustrate is that many, many Americans routinely engage in tax avoidance by hiring a tax accountant that finds them deductions. The fact that Ikea does the same is not cause for scorn. The fact that it is mathematically stupid for them not to do so does not mean that it is practical for you to do so. Everyone's situation varies.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by belorn on Friday February 02, 2018 @02:42PM (#16293591)
One of those loopholes that small mid to low income citizens can do is by majority elected revolutions and majority voted wealth reallocation. Should we scorn them for doing that, and on what moral principle is that different from a company exploiting loopholes or using political lobbying to disregard majority opinion in order to create laws with loopholes in them.

Scorn or moral objections is not the same as legal. If 51% voted to take the land and property of the 1%, then that is a democratic decision and the publicly published law. It would also be overwhelming scorned by those effected. Should we just tell them that they too would redistribute the wealth if they could and its stupid for anyone to not take wealth if they could.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by oldandtired on Friday February 02, 2018 @07:42PM (#16295416)
Please let's get technical here. Apply to the other comments to the parent comment.

Tax avoidance is an illegal means of not paying the actual tax required.

What you and the others who have replied to your comment mean is "tax minimisation", which is legal and uses the specified tax code to minimise your tax burden.

What is often done in discussions about this subject is classifying legal tax minimisation processes as tax avoidance.

Tax minimisation is perfectly fine and quite moral. Tax avoidance is not fine and is often immoral, though not necessarily.

There is a second thing at play here though. As I have friends who have worked in one national taxation organisation, they have explained that the way the system works is that the taxing organisation has internal descriptions of what they will allow as legitimate deductions which are different to what the legislation might read. If you use the correct descriptions and terminology, they will allow your claim through with no challenge. But, if you do not use the correct description or terminology then they will challenge said deduction. Such descriptions are not publicly available.

That is why good tax accountants get those obtuse deductions for their clients.

The tax law is written so that every citizen (including corporate) is only required to pay the minimum amount required and not anything above that.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Friday February 02, 2018 @08:51PM (#16295674)
> Tax avoidance is an illegal means of not paying the actual tax required

It seems curious that you'd start by defining terms and then define those terms incorrectly.

    tax a·void·ance
    taks əˈvoidns
    noun
    the arrangement of one's financial affairs to minimize tax 
    liability within the law.
In short, what you're referring to as minimisation is avoidance. For what it's worth, I've been using them interchangeably up to this point, and I agree that it's innocuous, harmless, etc.

The illegal act you're referring to is tax evasion.

> the taxing organisation has internal descriptions of what they will allow as legitimate deductions which are different to what the legislation might read

In America, the IRS is bound to the same laws as the citizenry, and while there may be some allowed discretion in interpretation, re-interpreting the law on their own is in fact illegal.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by oldandtired on Friday February 02, 2018 @11:44PM (#16296234)
Tax avoidance is the avoidance of the required tax (an alternative name is tax evasion), tax minimisation is paying one's required tax and no more.

From the perspective of tax collectors, avoidance is evasion and not minimisation. Politicians also use the term "tax avoidance" as a synonym for "tax evasion" when it is useful to them.

Having friends who worked at various stages for various kinds of bureaucracies (including tax collection), they have spoken of the distinct terminology used and why it is used.

It is not a matter of re-interpreting the "tax law" but creating the appropriate internal definitions as to what that "tax law" means. The problem that people face is that legal definitions quite often do not match the general populous understanding of the words used.

We can always argue over whether or not "tax avoidance" is the same as "tax evasion" or "tax minimisation". The reality is that each of these terms has a definitive meaning dependent on who is using the term. Taxation collection organisations will have one set of meanings, politicians will have another, the general population will have another.

The only meanings that are relevant are what the taxation collection organisations assign to those terms in their internal working processes. I am using the definitions of those terms as shared to me by my friends in taxation.

One of the reasons for using tax accountants these days is that many years ago, I was audited by the relevant tax authority. The upshot was that they disallowed the claim in question and in my last conversation with the auditor, he made the comment that the deduction was allowable but he wasn't going to tell me how to claim it. I have used accountants since then. I let them deal with the complexity of the taxation law. A good accountant is worth the cost just to avoid having to deal with the "insanity" of current taxation regimes.

I don't have a problem with taxation per se, only with the insane level of complexity that has built up in modern times. When tax law goes from say 80 pages at the start to 30,000 + pages today, one has to ask why? YMMV.

Lastly, if in America, the IRS is bound by those same laws as the citizenry, why are the so many documented cases of the IRS "draining" the bank accounts of so many little people when nothing illegal has been done? The IRS has interpreted the law by their own internal definitions.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Saturday February 03, 2018 @10:50AM (#16298046)
> Tax avoidance is the avoidance of the required tax (an alternative name is tax evasion), tax minimisation is paying one's required tax and no more

It still isn't. Some sources:

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance

> Tax avoidance is the legal usage of the tax regime in a single territory to one's own advantage to reduce the amount of tax that is payable by means that are within the law.

Investopedia - https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tax_avoidance.asp

> Tax avoidance is the use of legal methods to modify an individual's financial situation to lower the amount of income tax owed. This is generally accomplished by claiming the permissible deductions and credits. This practice differs from tax evasion, which uses illegal methods, such as underreporting income to avoid paying taxes.

Dictionary.com - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/tax-avoidance

> reduction or minimization of tax liability by lawful methods

Collins Dictionary - https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/tax-avo...

> Tax avoidance is the use of legal methods to pay the smallest possible amount of tax.

Freedic Legal Dictionary - https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tax+avoidance

> The process whereby an individual plans his or her finances so as to apply all exemptions and deductions provided by tax laws to reduce taxable income.

> Through tax avoidance, an individual takes advantage of all legal opportunities to minimize his or her state or federal Income Tax, gift tax, or estate tax. An individual may, for example, avoid federal income tax by investing a large sum of money in municipal bonds, since the interest on such bonds is not considered taxable income on which federal tax is due. Interest on the same amount of money placed in a savings account must be included as taxable income.

> From the perspective of tax collectors, avoidance is evasion and not minimisation.

This is misleading. Either may trigger an audit if the internally expected discrepancy is greater than the actual discrepancy, but an audit isn't criminal, and it takes an assertion of fraud (a violation of the law, which does not fall within legal avoidance strategies) to go from audit to criminality.

> Politicians also use the term "tax avoidance" as a synonym for "tax evasion" when it is useful to them.

Possibly. Politicians do all sorts of stupid shit. That has zero bearing on the definition of words.

> The problem that people face is that legal definitions quite often do not match the general populous understanding of the words used.

Right, which is why tax agencies interpret the law into tax code that is distributed to the populace* as clear and transparent. In the event that there's a failure at reconciliation between legislative intent on a tax policy and the interpreted code, that can be changed legislatively, clarified during reconciliation, or fixed through a variety of other means. The IRS is not authorized to re-interpret tax law to mean things it doesn't say, and while there's a certain amount of interpretive leeway, as a citizen, you can sue where you disagree.

> We can always argue over whether or not "tax avoidance" is the same as "tax evasion" or "tax minimisation".

We can, but since there are clear lexical, legal and tax definitions for each, it seems a stupid hill to die on. If people insist on using the wrong words, that can't be helped, but that doesn't mean that the right words don't exist.

> I am using the definitions of those terms as shared to me by my friends in taxation.

Not that it should be considered canon, but I have friends that work at the IRS, the SEC, and at FINCEN. I reached out to them, and they all think that your friends are wrong. /shrug.

It's probably worth clarifying that when I refer to agencies here, I'm referring specifically to American agencies. I don't have any clue on how other countries internally represent their laws, and I make no assertions as to how they operate. I have no idea.

> Lastly, if in America, the IRS is bound by those same laws as the citizenry, why are the so many documented cases of the IRS "draining" the bank accounts of so many little people when nothing illegal has been done? The IRS has interpreted the law by their own internal definitions.

Well, they can't drain your account, but they can freeze your funds. As to the 'why', it's because there are laws that expressly authorize them to do so. The IRS has express legal authority to issue a bank levy to freeze accounts in the event of certain activities or suspicion of certain activities. Note that 'having legal authority' to do something does not connote to 'having extralegal authority' to do something. They are bound by the same laws that you and I are, and those laws authorize them to do something. While speaking practically, they might be able to freeze accounts for no reason at all, but they are breaking the law in doing so because they do not have legal authority to freeze accounts for funsies.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by oldandtired on Sunday February 04, 2018 @06:58AM (#16302411)
As far as any tax collection body is concerned, tax avoidance bad (acts as if it is the same as tax evasion), tax minimisation okay.

As far as IRS and draining of accounts is concerned, tell that to the poor people who have had their money confiscated from their accounts. Enough records of this occurring for you to track down. Little people usually don't have the resources to engage in the legal battles to regain their funds.

As far as your friends are concerned, their MMV.

Our differences are there and so be it. There are more important matters occurring at this time than this kind of discussion.

Fair thee well.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by jessaustin on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:13AM (#16290601)
The difference between "many Americans" (actually other highly-taxed subjects are probably the same) and hideous unkillable corporate zombies like Ikea is that the little people use the tax laws as they are. The corporate monsters write the tax laws, to their own exclusive benefit, in every nation they invade. That's not an option for the little people.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by abakker on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:55AM (#16290900)
There's a narrative here that says we got into this situation by the little people being uniformed and complicit.

OTOH, it is rarely so simple, since many of the little people work for those companies. When your employer does this stuff, it is probably good for you.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by jessaustin on Friday February 02, 2018 @11:36AM (#16291860)
One doubts those narrators would approve of the little people doing what it would actually take to rein in big business. In any case, it seems impossible to be both uninformed and complicit. (If you were just being really subtle and meant "uniformed", then yes one would agree that uniformed people, little or big, are more likely to be complicit.)
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by gaius on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:33AM (#16290728)
If you aren't seeking out the loopholes that apply to you, then you are paying more in taxes than you are legally required to.

Complete nonsense. Finding a loophole in the tax code is no different to finding a flaw in some computer code that gives you some access you were never intended to have. Should we all hire professional hackers too?

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:48AM (#16290828)
Except that the laws are the rules, the rules are publicly published, and everyone has access to them.

If McDonald's is selling a 10 piece McNuggets for $1.49, and a 20 piece for $4.99, then buying 2 x 10 piece McNuggets for $2.98 is a loophole around paying $4.99. If you find it immoral, so be it, but it doesn't change that you're paying more for McNuggets than McDonald's requires you to pay.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by goty2 on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:23AM (#16291180)
I don't find that to be an apt analogy. Tax avoidance is more like abusing coupons. Someone else is effectively paying your share, but the company can't shut it down because customer would complain or it could hurt the business overall. Eventually the business is forced to raise prices and everyone deal with coupons just to get a decent deal.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by anonacct37 on Friday February 02, 2018 @05:36PM (#16294771)
I feel like the phrase "coupon abuse" is madeup crap. A Business gives discounts in order to (hopefully) make more money, then try to ensure that we all see people who actually use those discounts as "abusers".

Don't fall for it.

It's not that complicated. If you are a business, don't sell stuff at a loss. If you want to sell stuff at a loss to drive traffic to your store, you're going to take a loss. Don't blame your customers.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Friday February 02, 2018 @11:26AM (#16291767)
Why isn't just getting rid of coupons a viable option?
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by goty2 on Friday February 02, 2018 @12:02PM (#16292099)
Because coupons might be useful to sell overstock or introduce new products. And even if you wanted to you would either have to convince all your customers to change their habits or convince the other businesses not to also not use them. It is like with credit card fees in the US.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by always_good on Friday February 02, 2018 @12:05PM (#16292120)
Because they are political tools. Like how "getting rid of pollution" would involve rethinking our civilization, not just creating some dumpster fires.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by gaius on Friday February 02, 2018 @12:58PM (#16292556)
and everyone has access to them

The ordinary taxpayer isn’t in a position to exploit interactions between n jurisdictions tax codes, are they?

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by dsfyu404ed on Friday February 02, 2018 @03:08PM (#16293808)
Most people don't buy IBC totes of dish soap to save a few bucks on the unit price because it's impractical, never-mind that they don't have the equipment to reasonably deal with liquids in that volume.

If you're not that rich then it doesn't make sense to go all out optimizing your taxes because the savings aren't big enough and the costs of doing so are high enough to make the net result a savings.

Not being rich enough to have access to certain tax avoiding structures is like complaining you not being able to get the savings of buying a ton of dish soap because you don't have a fork lift.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:03PM (#16295719)
It's a thing I've seen people do. Visiting a neighboring city to take advantage of their tax holiday for back to school shopping, for example, or buying a car from a neighboring state to avoid in-state registration.

People avoid taxes all the time, it's just that 5% savings on an average income doesn't save millions of dollars and cause Twitter to hate them.

Personally, I take the mortgage interest deduction, claim my real dependents, and put as much into my 401K as is legally allowed. Those are all tax avoidance strategies that people routinely engage in.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by 0xfeba on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:49AM (#16290839)
> Finding a loophole in the tax code is no different to finding a flaw in some computer code that gives you some access you were never intended to have.

But the former is not illegal while the latter most definitely is (unless it's your own software, etc.).

Loophole has negative connotations. But it really depends on many factors.

A prosperity gospel preacher buying a second LearJet tax free is not the same as a company hiring contractors to stay under 500 employees in order to retain some small-business benefit.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by jellicle on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:59AM (#16291529)
The main connotation of "loophole" is that the result is accidental rather than intended, which is fictitious propaganda.

"It's just crazy, but somehow, accidentally, we passed this big tax law and hedge fund managers don't have to pay taxes! Oh well! I guess we can't ever fix it, either! Crazy accident!"

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by anonacct37 on Friday February 02, 2018 @05:41PM (#16294812)
Good point. People voluntarily parted with money to pay for the first.

The second company, well if you take a minute to read this article it explains the price society pays for the second policy: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-risi...

I'm not really defending the first example, but america has a bit too much "privatize profits, externalize losses" for my taste. These policies do have impacts on the life of the median american.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bjourne on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:28AM (#16291236)
In most jurisdictions, some loopholes are legal to exploit while others aren't. Loopholes in tax laws are legal to exploit because it is not criminal to try and minimize your taxes. However, gaining unauthorized access to a system is criminal so exploiting loopholes is not legal. I think using loop holes in tax law should count as tax avoidance, but it currently doesn't.

During the Nuremberg trials the Nazis that stood accused actually unsuccessfully tried to exploit what was essentially loop holes in international law.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bsbechtel on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:35AM (#16290743)
If it were profitable to do so, I think most people would.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by Spivak on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:48AM (#16290827)
You're describing competitive intelligence.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by saosebastiao on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:44AM (#16290796)
Are you kidding me? Loopholes like that don't exist. The tax code starts from the assumption that you owe them money, but for very specific reasons allows you to deduct or credit from that amount owed. They simply do not naively put in deductions that shouldn't be there. The idea that "loopholes" are unintentional vulnerabilities is completely disconnected from reality.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by gaius on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:59AM (#16290959)
The legislators intended that via a complex web of shell companies obscuring ultimate ownership no taxes would be owed? I call shenanigans.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by saosebastiao on Friday February 02, 2018 @11:40AM (#16291886)
You seem to forget who got those legislators elected. Of course they intended it.

The real problem is that the corporate tax shouldn't exist. It's too easy to fuck with and manipulate a profit tax by being creative with what counts as revenue and what counts as expense. And tax incidence studies have repeatedly shown that the burden of corporate taxes fall disproportionately on labor, not capital. The better idea would be to eliminate the corporate tax entirely, taking the world's entire corporate tax avoidance scheme with it, and instead tax personal income, dividends, and capital gains at higher rates. It would actually be more progressive and far less avoidable, and mountains less complex.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by pc86 on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:20AM (#16291161)
If they didn't they've certainly had a very long time to correct it.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by anonacct37 on Friday February 02, 2018 @05:45PM (#16294838)
You're trying to make it sound like an overly complicated and not that likely situation. It's quite simple: money is free speech and legislators are listening. It's absolutely, 100% the case that tax laws are written to favor large businesses.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/7/16618038/h...

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by dx034 on Friday February 02, 2018 @08:55AM (#16290485)
Not really. Corporate taxes and personal taxes are two very different things. Ikea didn't commit tax fraud (at least from what I heard), they just used structures to minimise taxes. Those weren't loopholes, they were made by countries for companies like Ikea.

Companies utilising those structures aren't the problem. It's governments creating the opportunities. Same as with tax incentives for investments. You can't blame a company using tax incentives but you can blame the state/city/region that they created them.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by sooheon on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:50AM (#16290842)
Companies own the governments that create those opportunities.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by troupe on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:24PM (#16295964)
Tax laws are designed to encourage certain types of behavior. Funding non-profits is one of those behaviors. IKEA is setup to fund a non-profit that has a mission that tax law is designed to encourage. If you wanted to donate all of your income, you could probably get similar treatment.

Also keep in mind that IKEA still generates significant tax revenues in employment tax, sales tax, property tax, etc. In the US the property tax is what pays for the physical infrastructure you speak of.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by jjuel on Friday February 02, 2018 @08:59AM (#16290506)
I think everyone seeks loopholes. And certainly all businesses are seeking as many loopholes as possible. And as long as politicians are either business people or bought by business people the loopholes will exist. And we will be paying for those businesses in one way or another.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by jessaustin on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:22AM (#16290656)
The word "loophole" itself encodes a sort of prejudice into our language, much like the phrase "automobile accident" instead of the more neutral "automobile collision". If by "loophole" one means a legislative mistake that catches legislators and lobbyists by surprise with its unintended consequences, then it denotes something that has never actually existed. People work for hundreds of hours on legislative terms, and other people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get those terms in front of the legislature for a vote. We need another word, that encapsulates the whole concept of a benefit that big business has created for itself via corruption.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by 0xfeba on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:54AM (#16290894)
> If by "loophole" one means a legislative mistake that catches legislators and lobbyists by surprise with its unintended consequences, then it denotes something that has never actually existed.

Yeah, no, it happens all the time.

Church of Satan uses Religious Freedom law against anti-abortion legislation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/25/satanists-say-missouris-abor...

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by jessaustin on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:57AM (#16291506)
Try again; your example is terrible. There is no "loophole" discussed at that link. According to that link, the "Satanists" claim that a particular law has been misinterpreted by abortion clinics, and that the law conflicts with 1A religious rights. The only way this could be related to a loophole would be if somehow the law gave some parties additional benefits they didn't have without the law, perhaps after modification to meet 1A requirements. The whole purpose of the law is to make obtaining an abortion more onerous, so who could possibly be getting such a benefit?

The Bill of Rights has invalidated or modified laws in hundreds of legal cases. In none of those cases has it been considered the action of a loophole.