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Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by gaius on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:33AM (#16290728)
If you aren't seeking out the loopholes that apply to you, then you are paying more in taxes than you are legally required to.

Complete nonsense. Finding a loophole in the tax code is no different to finding a flaw in some computer code that gives you some access you were never intended to have. Should we all hire professional hackers too?

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:48AM (#16290828)
Except that the laws are the rules, the rules are publicly published, and everyone has access to them.

If McDonald's is selling a 10 piece McNuggets for $1.49, and a 20 piece for $4.99, then buying 2 x 10 piece McNuggets for $2.98 is a loophole around paying $4.99. If you find it immoral, so be it, but it doesn't change that you're paying more for McNuggets than McDonald's requires you to pay.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by goty2 on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:23AM (#16291180)
I don't find that to be an apt analogy. Tax avoidance is more like abusing coupons. Someone else is effectively paying your share, but the company can't shut it down because customer would complain or it could hurt the business overall. Eventually the business is forced to raise prices and everyone deal with coupons just to get a decent deal.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by anonacct37 on Friday February 02, 2018 @05:36PM (#16294771)
I feel like the phrase "coupon abuse" is madeup crap. A Business gives discounts in order to (hopefully) make more money, then try to ensure that we all see people who actually use those discounts as "abusers".

Don't fall for it.

It's not that complicated. If you are a business, don't sell stuff at a loss. If you want to sell stuff at a loss to drive traffic to your store, you're going to take a loss. Don't blame your customers.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Friday February 02, 2018 @11:26AM (#16291767)
Why isn't just getting rid of coupons a viable option?
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by goty2 on Friday February 02, 2018 @12:02PM (#16292099)
Because coupons might be useful to sell overstock or introduce new products. And even if you wanted to you would either have to convince all your customers to change their habits or convince the other businesses not to also not use them. It is like with credit card fees in the US.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by always_good on Friday February 02, 2018 @12:05PM (#16292120)
Because they are political tools. Like how "getting rid of pollution" would involve rethinking our civilization, not just creating some dumpster fires.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by gaius on Friday February 02, 2018 @12:58PM (#16292556)
and everyone has access to them

The ordinary taxpayer isn’t in a position to exploit interactions between n jurisdictions tax codes, are they?

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by dsfyu404ed on Friday February 02, 2018 @03:08PM (#16293808)
Most people don't buy IBC totes of dish soap to save a few bucks on the unit price because it's impractical, never-mind that they don't have the equipment to reasonably deal with liquids in that volume.

If you're not that rich then it doesn't make sense to go all out optimizing your taxes because the savings aren't big enough and the costs of doing so are high enough to make the net result a savings.

Not being rich enough to have access to certain tax avoiding structures is like complaining you not being able to get the savings of buying a ton of dish soap because you don't have a fork lift.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bmelton on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:03PM (#16295719)
It's a thing I've seen people do. Visiting a neighboring city to take advantage of their tax holiday for back to school shopping, for example, or buying a car from a neighboring state to avoid in-state registration.

People avoid taxes all the time, it's just that 5% savings on an average income doesn't save millions of dollars and cause Twitter to hate them.

Personally, I take the mortgage interest deduction, claim my real dependents, and put as much into my 401K as is legally allowed. Those are all tax avoidance strategies that people routinely engage in.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by 0xfeba on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:49AM (#16290839)
> Finding a loophole in the tax code is no different to finding a flaw in some computer code that gives you some access you were never intended to have.

But the former is not illegal while the latter most definitely is (unless it's your own software, etc.).

Loophole has negative connotations. But it really depends on many factors.

A prosperity gospel preacher buying a second LearJet tax free is not the same as a company hiring contractors to stay under 500 employees in order to retain some small-business benefit.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by jellicle on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:59AM (#16291529)
The main connotation of "loophole" is that the result is accidental rather than intended, which is fictitious propaganda.

"It's just crazy, but somehow, accidentally, we passed this big tax law and hedge fund managers don't have to pay taxes! Oh well! I guess we can't ever fix it, either! Crazy accident!"

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by anonacct37 on Friday February 02, 2018 @05:41PM (#16294812)
Good point. People voluntarily parted with money to pay for the first.

The second company, well if you take a minute to read this article it explains the price society pays for the second policy: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-risi...

I'm not really defending the first example, but america has a bit too much "privatize profits, externalize losses" for my taste. These policies do have impacts on the life of the median american.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bjourne on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:28AM (#16291236)
In most jurisdictions, some loopholes are legal to exploit while others aren't. Loopholes in tax laws are legal to exploit because it is not criminal to try and minimize your taxes. However, gaining unauthorized access to a system is criminal so exploiting loopholes is not legal. I think using loop holes in tax law should count as tax avoidance, but it currently doesn't.

During the Nuremberg trials the Nazis that stood accused actually unsuccessfully tried to exploit what was essentially loop holes in international law.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by bsbechtel on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:35AM (#16290743)
If it were profitable to do so, I think most people would.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by Spivak on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:48AM (#16290827)
You're describing competitive intelligence.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by saosebastiao on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:44AM (#16290796)
Are you kidding me? Loopholes like that don't exist. The tax code starts from the assumption that you owe them money, but for very specific reasons allows you to deduct or credit from that amount owed. They simply do not naively put in deductions that shouldn't be there. The idea that "loopholes" are unintentional vulnerabilities is completely disconnected from reality.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by gaius on Friday February 02, 2018 @09:59AM (#16290959)
The legislators intended that via a complex web of shell companies obscuring ultimate ownership no taxes would be owed? I call shenanigans.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by saosebastiao on Friday February 02, 2018 @11:40AM (#16291886)
You seem to forget who got those legislators elected. Of course they intended it.

The real problem is that the corporate tax shouldn't exist. It's too easy to fuck with and manipulate a profit tax by being creative with what counts as revenue and what counts as expense. And tax incidence studies have repeatedly shown that the burden of corporate taxes fall disproportionately on labor, not capital. The better idea would be to eliminate the corporate tax entirely, taking the world's entire corporate tax avoidance scheme with it, and instead tax personal income, dividends, and capital gains at higher rates. It would actually be more progressive and far less avoidable, and mountains less complex.

Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by pc86 on Friday February 02, 2018 @10:20AM (#16291161)
If they didn't they've certainly had a very long time to correct it.
Re:Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to e... by anonacct37 on Friday February 02, 2018 @05:45PM (#16294838)
You're trying to make it sound like an overly complicated and not that likely situation. It's quite simple: money is free speech and legislators are listening. It's absolutely, 100% the case that tax laws are written to favor large businesses.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/7/16618038/h...