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Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by ggm on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:28AM (#16263995)
I'd rather pay the guardian (and I do) for content than pay any news limited (murdoch) for the same (I don't) both have a bias, but only one is being even remotely honest about it. News ltd try hard to claim centrist positions but are both far more rightward than they want to admit, and much less open about advertorial and content which materially advances Rupert Murdoch's personal causes. The guardian wears its heart on its shirt. Many comments in the guardian are vituperation but if you break the paywall to read news ltd comments they are racist, and worse. They have editorial control on comments and chose not to apply them which I feel speaks volumes to their readerships expectations and their own.
Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by gaius on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:58AM (#16264115)
but only one is being even remotely honest about it

It’s funny because if you take an objective look at the Graun - based in a tax haven, all its writers seem to have double-barrelled names and went to Oxbridge from an exclusive boarding school - it’s clear that their left-wing schtick is just an act, a product they sell to a gullible audience. They’re as establishment as it gets.

I don’t buy any Murdoch products either but don’t kid yourself that the Graun is any different

Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by toyg on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:28AM (#16264437)
> They’re as establishment as it gets.

It depends on your definition of "establishment". The Guardian writers tend to represent middle- and upper-middle-class istances, which are not the same as working-class ones but can also be pretty divergent from proper upper-class objectives.

Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by gaius on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:43AM (#16265168)
Maybe, but at the same time, they clearly don’t believe in fair taxation or comprehensive education or anything else they seemingly advocate. One rule for the toffs and another for the plebs, is their real message.
Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by toyg on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @10:24AM (#16265976)
> they clearly don’t believe in fair taxation or comprehensive education

I disagree on that. Some of them do, some of them don't. The work they've done on Panama Papers and other stuff was pretty good, and overall unmatched in the UK. I have my complaints with the Guardian, but I wouldn't brand them with a scarlet letter.

Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by ggm on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:54AM (#16264304)
You think people who go to Eton can't be left wing? Gosh, the Cambridge five.. seriously. If you think it's 'just an act' I don't think you understand British left politics at all. The establishment has had a left wing since before the second world war. Even the daily worker had people from Oxbridge working for it.

It's left wing, not working class. The sun is working class, tits and all.

Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by gaius on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:38PM (#16268271)
For me the Left is that which fights for The Workers. The Graun may pay occasional lip service to say the NHS but they literally won’t put their money where their mouths are. They are as guilty of exploiting The Workers as all bourgeoisie - worse even.
Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by ggm on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @09:55PM (#16270964)
The bourgeoisie are what Lenin called 'Useful idiots' and in that regard, the Guardian writers perform a role. If your reason to hate the guardian is that they vest ownership in a non-profit which uses tax minimisation, you've driven to a very specific corner.

Your root cause argument I suspect is true: because I value the editorial message I overlook the flaws. In this regard, the News Ltd and Guardian are the same thing: they are newspapers. But, my root position also remains. I chose to give one money and not the other. I should just be more open to the reality behind that decision. The only person I am fooling, is probably myself.

Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by gaius on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @03:22AM (#16272358)
you've driven to a very specific corner.

It’s one particularly egregious example but there are plenty more: education is another, why are state comps good enough for The Workers while Graun types go private? Or housing.

Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by ggm on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @06:00PM (#16278346)
Owen Jones, as a specific example did not attend private school. Polly Toynbee attended a state school before university. Martin Kettle went to Leeds modern. This idea that the 'guardian' is packed with public school toffs is reed-thin. I didn't bother looking harder because I'm pretty confident its not true. Its just what you want to be true.

Oxford is biassed to private school entry because its competitive. But it is emphatically not closed to state school pupils, and never has been. But in any case, whilst a lot of guardian journalists and columnists went there, I doubt all did by any stretch.

Re:How the Guardian improbably put itself on the path to pro... by toyg on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:21AM (#16264413)
> The sun is working class.

The Sun targets the working class, it doesn't necessarily represent it. Like the Daily Mail, they lie and spread hate in a more accessible language.