News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by donquichotte on Thursday January 25, 2018 @05:24PM (#16235284)
I agree that this is problematic, but aren't companies valued the same way? I.e. num_shares x share_price? Similar issues apply there.
Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by aslkdjaslkdj on Thursday January 25, 2018 @10:26PM (#16236808)
A company is valued in terms of the currency in it's stock exchange. A company in US has it's market cap in USD and a Japanese company has it's market cap in JPY. If you want to calculate the market cap in USD for a Japenese company, you have to use an exchange rate.

Now since cryptos are currencies themselves, it makes no sense of talking about a market cap. The market cap of stellar is the number of stellar available.

The market cap of a real currency like USD is the money supply. The money supply has probably a couple dozen different definitions depending on how you want to look at it and the fungibility of different representation of money. (Eg does it really make sense to consider burned bitcoin or satoshi's supposedly "never moving" bitcoin as part of the "money supply")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply#United_States

There is a reason forex market economists/analysts don't talk about the "market cap" of the Japanese Yen or market cap of the British pound.

There is also the whole intrinsic value of a company part. People buy stock because they believe the company is worth more than other people do. They (except for minor exceptions in the case of small investors) judge the companies future ability to generate profits and cash to decide on whether the buy or sell the stock. People buy crypto on pure speculation that other people will buy crypto in the future.

Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by lmm on Friday January 26, 2018 @08:43AM (#16239020)
The same issues apply for thinly traded "penny stocks", and you'll see similar caution about believing market cap numbers for those companies. For blue-chip stocks the market is deep enough that you can more-or-less trust the market cap number. But yes, the only "true" valuation for anything is what someone will pay for it, the only way you can get a real answer to "what's the value of all stellars outstanding" is to collect a bid and an ask on that.
Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by benatkin on Thursday January 25, 2018 @05:43PM (#16235421)
Yeah, they are, and in the 90s DotCom boom I remember seeing it prominently mentioned that the value of Jerry Yang's shares in Yahoo! was "on paper".
Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by empath75 on Thursday January 25, 2018 @05:33PM (#16235345)
except amazon stock represents ownership of a corporation with assets that have value.
Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by panarky on Saturday January 27, 2018 @04:19PM (#16248117)
You'd think so, but not really.

Amazon's balance sheet [0] shows assets minus liabilities of $19 billion. So the "assets" that shareholders "own" are less than 3% of the company's $690 billion market cap.

Not to mention that shareholders don't "own" those assets in any real, tangible sense.

If you look around at any form of wealth, from the balance in your checking account to stocks, bonds and even the title on real property, it's all invisible, intangible and socially constructed.

Not as different from cryptocurrency as one would like to think.

[0] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1018724/000101872417...

Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by bringtheaction on Thursday January 25, 2018 @07:09PM (#16235988)
> digital things can't have value because they aren't real

That's basically what you are saying.

Here's the thing though. Crypto currencies can have lots of uses. And even "simple" ones "only" made for payment like XLM and XRB have a value when they let me transact fast and cheaply.

I look forward to a future where my money is mine. Where no bank can arbitrarily decide to FREEZE MY FUNDS that I have LOANED TO THEM. The banking system is broken. Sure it gives us some nice things in return like fraud protection. But increasingly I begin to wonder whether the advantages of trad-banks are worth giving them control over my money, and increasingly the answer seems to me to be no.

Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by tim333 on Friday January 26, 2018 @08:30AM (#16238940)
> digital things can't have value because they aren't real

I don't think he's saying that at all. Google is pretty digital but has value because it has millions of paying customers. With things like dogecoin the value proposition is more questionable.

Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by benatkin on Saturday January 27, 2018 @01:49AM (#16245161)
Traditional crypto mining burns real energy that costs real money and has a real carbon footprint, and the owners of the rigs have real pride that create a floor of how much Bitcoin will be worth, so long as it's technically sound.
Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by pedalpete on Thursday January 25, 2018 @10:28PM (#16236819)
But Amazon's value is not based on it's assets. What is the value of AWS? Is it the physical servers and data-centers? Or is it the knowledge and systems which make it all operational.

If you can accept the later is where the real value is, eventually you're going to get to the point where you see the REAL value is in putting these pieces together into a system where a customer can exchange $$ for the value being created.

Then look at somebody like Stripe, and say, they make all the $$ just facilitating the exchange of $$ online.

Now, all of a sudden these other crypto services that enable the exchange of $$ don't seem so out there or do they?

Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by oh_sigh on Friday January 26, 2018 @02:15AM (#16237523)
Software and intellectual property is an asset.
Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by 0wing on Thursday January 25, 2018 @11:34PM (#16237051)
These are common misconceptions from speculators.

1. Crypto-assets like Bitcoin/Ethereum/Steller/Ripple, etc, are created simply by typing some numbers into a piece of software. There's no underlying value, it's a number in a database.

2. Stocks have measurable value, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price%E2%80%93earnings_ratio

3. Anytime someone sells a Bitcoin or whatevercoin it requires a buyer. Similar to baseball cards, beanie babies, or other artifitially scarce yet easy to produce asset, the market is subject to supply and demand. In the case of cryptocoins, the supply is created and distributed to a small group of users who horde it, in the hope that new users will come in and purchase the coins for more than it cost to create them. This is a hallmark of a typical pyramid scam, which collapses once no more investors can be found, leaving the late adopters holding now worthless "coins".

4. Stocks in Amazon and businesses grant you legal rights, and if the company goes bankrupt you are entitled to compensation from their assets.

Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by JohnJamesRambo on Friday January 26, 2018 @04:36AM (#16237960)
How long do you think Amazon's stock price would stay high if no new investors could be found? Don't dig too deep into what separates stocks and government issued fiat currency from pyramid schemes or what you find will trouble you. In many ways, crypto is the safer of the two. A finite amount of bitcoin will be created, can you say the same for the US dollar?

My view is that everything is a pyramid scheme from the first wampum and beads that were traded by humans on down the line to where we are now. The difference is crypto is a chance to get in at the top for once. That chance was missed ages ago by our generation with regard to the US dollar.

Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by Lewton on Friday January 26, 2018 @07:22AM (#16238594)
> How long do you think Amazon's stock price would stay high if no new investors could be found?

If, in your hypothetical example, the reason there were no buyers was completely unrelated to the performance of Amazon as a company

And the price of Amazons stocks dropped enough, eventually it would reach a point where Amazon would start buying its stocks back as it would be financially nonsensical to not do so

Re:2018 Stellar roadmap by 0wing on Friday January 26, 2018 @09:23PM (#16244484)

  The difference is crypto is a chance to get in at the top 
  for once.
Not if you buy other cryptocoins like Bitcoin or Ethereum that someone else created for nothing to sell to bagholders. All you're doing there is becoming a late adopter and you must pray you're not too late in the pyramid that you'll be able to sell to some other speculator at a price higher than you bought meanwhile you're at a 1000x-10,000x disadvantage to anyone who acquired the coin for pennies/fractions of the cost to you. Simple game theory.

Anyone who wants to just needs to create their own crypto-asset and market it like the others to convince "speculators" it's worth purchasing.

Notice how bitcoin/cryptocoin advocates tell others to "HODL" - psychological manipulation is needed to maintain the artificial market scarcity as there's no real demand, use, or acceptance from retailers. [1]

If you're genuinely concerned about control of the money supply, you would voice concern about how cryptocoins are majority owned by only a few hundred people [2] and because of how tether [3] has been marketed and used on exchanges it's essentially like the federal reserve of cryptocurrencies except it's just 2 guys and it's alleged to be backed by nothing which could mean they're stealing large amounts of cryptocoins. Given all the theft in the cryptocoin system, one might wonder if regulations and security standards exist for a reason. What happens if thieves become the majority wealth holders of all the cryptocoins?

[1] https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support

https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail...

[2] http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-inequality-2014-1

[3] https://medium.com/@bitfinexed/