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Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by ShabbosGoy on Monday January 22, 2018 @03:01AM (#16202684)
> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it.

Which is why FOSS is so important. Can you imagine a world where Linux was closed source? You’d never have any insight into security patches, or these discussions.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by joelthelion on Monday January 22, 2018 @04:03AM (#16202966)
> FOSS is so important

FOSS is nice, but it's not a silver bullet. In this case I think Linus is largely to thank. Things will be a lot harder if he decides to retire.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by Cthulhu_ on Monday January 22, 2018 @04:51AM (#16203180)
A silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase, or how much man-hours were spent (sunk cost fallacy). I think in a lot of "corporate" projects (not-open source) there's much less of that and the software is designed by commission, with the lead developer(s) quickly no longer having much of an influence on the code itself, being drawn away into meetings and such.

Maybe I'm projecting.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by joelthelion on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:09AM (#16204054)
> A silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase,

Well if Linus goes too far, Google and a couple other big corporate contributors could team up and fork Linux, and it would be very hard for the open project to compete. I think the fact that Linus is so good is a big part of what makes the whole thing hold together.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by subway on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:27AM (#16204146)
They could, and they often do (Android and ChromeOS effectively run forked kernels). At the end of the day though, they always wanna rebase against that sweet sweet mainline quality.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by carlmr on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:47AM (#16204685)
It's simple, the stack of hacks they produced in the meantime at some point becomes a tall tower prone to fall over.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by crdoconnor on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:24AM (#16204132)
I think this is dead on. I think at Microsoft that guy was Dave Cutler. Most of the really well designed stuff seems to have him at the helm - NT4.0, bits of XP, Win2k, Windows Server 2003 and then Azure.

I have a suspicion that Satya's rise to CEOdom via Azure's success could be attributed to him too.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by EamonnMR on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:11AM (#16204417)
If you're a Cutler fan you may enjoy Showstopper[1], an account of the creation of NT.

1: https://www.amazon.com/Show-Stopper-Breakneck-Generation-Mic...

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by azinman2 on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:59AM (#16205333)
Thanks for the rec, looks interesting.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by trentnelson on Monday January 22, 2018 @07:08PM (#16209493)
It's a great book. Motivated me to switch industries and relocate to Seattle as an NT kernel programmer.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by alxlaz on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:27AM (#16204531)
This may be true, but FOSS does not magically make it happen. Many FOSS projects are led or dominated by large companies today; the development may happen in the open, but it is as "corporate" as it gets, and no bullshit calling occurs (or if it does, it is quickly silenced with EWONTFIX & co.)
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by hajile on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:42AM (#16205180)
That's only partially true. When you only have one corporations interests, things get shady very quickly. When you have multiple, competing corporations, they have a vested interest in keeping their competitors honest. It would be very rare indeed to find something that every company wanted to downplay at the same time.

Spectre and meltdown are a great example of this. Sure, ARM, Intel, and (to a lesser extent) AMD may want to downplay these things, but Google did not, so it became a big deal anyway.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by vog on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @10:07AM (#16214107)
> This may be true, but FOSS does not magically make it happen

So what? Nobody said that. This is a strawman.

Of course FOSS is not sufficient. Look at any homework-style GitHub repo. Nobody disputes that.

All that is said is that FOSS is necessary to achieve this level of quality.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by mrmondo on Monday January 22, 2018 @05:04AM (#16203227)
It’s an ideological situation to say the least... but it’s also what we have right know and god damn I’m thankful for it’s beautiful rarity.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by snambi on Monday January 22, 2018 @05:06PM (#16208417)
We may be we can train an MBA to do Linus's job? ;)
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by vog on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:44AM (#16204661)
So you demote FOSS from "important" to "nice" just because it isn't a silver bullet? (which does not exist, anyway)

That doesn't make any sense. This is a strawman argument.

Nobody ever said that FOSS is a silver bullet, not even FSFE, FSF, or Stallman himself.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by acct1771 on Monday January 22, 2018 @12:11PM (#16205971)
This is as good a place to ask the question nobody likes to discuss, but is important to never forget - what do we do when the bus hits Linus?
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by sethrin on Monday January 22, 2018 @03:49PM (#16207782)
I believe Greg Kroah-Hartman is the designated successor.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by dvfjsdhgfv on Monday January 22, 2018 @07:00AM (#16203725)
In most other FOSS projects people would be afraid to be that frank when referring to Intel's behavior though.
[dead]
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by snowwrestler on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:24AM (#16205553)
Linus would be just as effective if he never used another swear word. It is his technical knowledge, his position as the final committer, and his willingness to stand up for what he believes in, that gives him power.

Ranting and swearing is part of who he is personally, but those are not generally required for being a good project leader.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by trevyn on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:43AM (#16205723)
I think the ranting and swearing help -- they make him more memorable, and therefore more generally well-known. This can then feed on itself a bit to make him more of a public "celebrity" and have more pull than he would otherwise.

I agree that his other skills are likely more important overall, and there are certainly other ways to be memorable, but I don't think you can discount the contribution of the ranting.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by Scarblac on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:45AM (#16205759)
Without the swear words this wouldn't get as much publicity as it does, and that may help in getting Intel to change.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by TheKarateKid on Monday January 22, 2018 @01:53PM (#16206844)
Linus' swearing falls in line perfectly with the FOSS movement -- to not conform to corporate hierarchy and societal norms.

Like others said, his language helps drive the point home and leaves more of an impression. It also humanizes Linus as well.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by awakeasleep on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:39AM (#16204626)
Wow I didn’t think of that but what if a woman wrote the code in that patch? Linus would be making her feel unwelcome.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by xxs on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:19AM (#16204946)
There are prior examples of his writing style offending a lady who turned to actually had a pretty potty mount, herself, as well.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by dvanduzer on Monday January 22, 2018 @03:30PM (#16207631)
As long as a person doesn't pretend they've never been cruel to another person, it isn't hypocritical to call for more kindness. There is also a huge difference between using salty language to emphasize when something is massively complicated versus emphasis when calling someone a huge idiot.

As far as this particular Torvalds screed goes, it strikes me as measured for him. He is very clear about what he wants more of and what he wants less of. It's the code that is garbage, and he doesn't get overly personal other than to chide Woodhouse for glossing over the quality of Woodhouse's own contributions.

edit: ahh right, "mis-designed by morons" which is pretty inflammatory, and he should do better than that. I suspect he is trying to provoke someone at Intel into explaining their intent. Insult their intelligence, and they'll reveal something about their (possibly sinister) motive.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by xbmcuser on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:00AM (#16205349)
Why are you assuming it wasn't a female coder
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by mrmondo on Monday January 22, 2018 @03:09AM (#16202721)
Exactly, I’d love to see the state and flux of the Meltdown and Spectre patches for the various Windows kernels.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by Spooky23 on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:04AM (#16204032)
Worse still, imagine a world where there was no Linux, and Oracle/Sun happened?
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by peapicker on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:52AM (#16205260)
Ironically, Sun might have not had to sell themselves to Oracle, and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues.

Linux is what allowed Intel to get its biggest foothold into the UNIX server market.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by cesarb on Monday January 22, 2018 @03:46PM (#16207761)
> and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues.

Given enough time, SPARC chips would also become vulnerable to these issues. See what happened to ARM: their later (higher performance) designs are more vulnerable than their older designs.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by PopsiclePete on Monday January 22, 2018 @01:25PM (#16206600)
>Ironically, Sun might have not had to sell themselves to Oracle, and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues.

Solaris, with the exceptions of a few bright stars like DTrace and ZFS, always seemed like a POS to me, compared to linux. Especially as a work-station. Sun went full retard with Java everywhere right before they went under and I have a feeling the Solaris Desktop experience, and by extension the UNIX desktop experience, would be something from my worst nightmares, something to make wish for Windows Vista.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by dboreham on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:42AM (#16205710)
This is true, but if there hadn't been Linux there would have been something else to fill this niche (runs on commodity PC hardware, zero license cost). Sparc/Solaris wouldn't have continued to rule. Intel would have found some other workable solution.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by peapicker on Monday January 22, 2018 @12:27PM (#16206129)
True. And we'd have the same issues with this processor family now...

Don't get me wrong, I love Linux and loved FreeBSD back when it was more easy to choose... But I do think the 'free UNIX' movement has had unintended consequences like the demise of Sun, and perhaps now also this exposing of a failure in what was a desktop class chip architecture that was elevated to server usage.

Everything has a cost is all I'm saying.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by digi_owl on Monday January 22, 2018 @12:01PM (#16205898)
Indeed. For one there was the 386BSD lawsuit, for another there was HURD. Torvalds himself has stated that if HURD had been usable at the time, he would not have bothered working on Linux.

Honestly, back when Linux started getting momentum, RMS' GNU/Linux argument had merit. Most of the stuff people where running on top of Linux, never mind using to develop Linux, came from the GNU project.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by icedchai on Monday January 22, 2018 @02:14PM (#16207031)
That world was the late 90's / early 2000's. Yes, Linux was around, but every startup was buying Sun hardware since it wasn't quite mature yet. Sun was the dot in .com after all.

I actually worked at a startup that threw out a working Linux / MySQL solution in favor of a Sun / Oracle one. Because, you know, VC...

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by dsmithatx on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:23PM (#16210393)
Linux is a kernel. An x86 Kernel running Gnu would have happened, and instead of Linux we would just be calling it something else.