"So somebody isn't telling the truth here. Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons" - maybe the patches are bad. Or maybe there is an undisclosed vulnerability (like https://skyfallattack.com/ ?) that needs this "garbage" to mitigate it, and no-one got Linus properly in the loop. If it's the latter, all this shouting and cursing about "They do things that do not make sense" has likely attracted the attention of people interested in such things...
Linus' initial response to patch 9 appears to be missing from the mailing list, so it's not even clear to me he intended it to be made public.
Where is the sea of noise you think justifies this?
Here we go.
>> All Linus needs to do is say something like
And all you need to do is be that nice and be as brilliant as Linus is.
Oh, it's harder to be that smart than it is to be that nice? Maybe consider that for people as highly gifted as Linus, it actually isn't.
What you take for granted as normal behavior isn't always normal to others, especially those at the outliers of skill and intelligence.
If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter.
Would it have been clearer if I had said "All someone in a project leadership position needs to say ..." ? I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated.
As sundvor already pointed out, Linus's cursing works. He uses it for emphasis, to bring attention to bear where it's needed. Being polite would likely be less effective.
> If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter.
So shouldn't you be OK with Linus cursing?
I disagree here too, though. Cursing is a choice, not a disability.
If, say, a firm fires someone for failing to maintain a civil tongue, I'd hardly call that a diversity problem. It could be quite reasonable, depending on the firm.
> I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated
Define 'necessary'. Would the kernel implode if Linus were more polite? Of course not, but I still agree with sundvor that Linus uses it as an effective tool. He's not just an angry child with poor impulse control.
That is because there is no other copy of Linus. There's plenty of other lesser software developers who can't do a tenth of what Linus did in his life.
I'd argue that in fact, there is circumstantial evidence that brilliant computer programmers can get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable: that evidence is the fact that most brilliant computer programmers get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable. There is nothing that requires Linus to make strong points by jumping and down and screaming. That's an affection he deliberately chooses.
There's a strong notion through this whole comment thread of "if he didn't do that, nobody would listen to him," which is absolute nonsense. People don't listen to him because of these kinds of outbursts, they listen to him because he's Linus Torvalds. They listen to him in spite of these kinds of outbursts.
Check the title of the thread you're in, and how many comments it has. People absolutely listen to him when he has these outbursts. It's usually a solid indicator there's something worth getting outraged about.
I am guessing you don't read the Linux mailing list if you think Linus goes off like this regularly. Maybe you're confusing it with the OpenBSD list and Theo.
Linus' comments like this make the news because of the content. If he did this all the time - frequently, as you posit - it wouldn't make the news all that often, as it would be normal. Linus isn't a guy who flies off the handle with regularity.
I think we do when communicating with some people. It's all a matter of context. To 99.99% of people being brash is just going to be a hindrance. For some however it's required for them to see what their actions are not up to standard.
That's my 2c's anyway. I've never had a situation (within the tech industry) where I've needed to be so on the nose as Linus, but a couple of times I've got close after repeatedly telling one person their actions were VERY wrong and risked doing the whole entire team damage.
Anything that speaks for all of us is bullshit, so both of you are offtopic. Anybody who pretends to speak for what "we need" is a charlatan. You don't need to address what one person says their preference for universal organization is. Don't feed the trolls.
Maybe less. Probably not more ....
Sure there is. You would rather have Linus in your life who yells at people than not. Linus being an asshole is something you have to deal with to get access to his intelligence. I suggest you make peace with this understanding, as it applies to far more people than Linus.
And having my cake and eating it too in every scenario would be great. That's not how things work all the time. It's up to you to deal with it, not Linus to change. He's the scarce resource. He has the leverage. You're just someone on the Internet mad.
I've found this quote by Neil Gaiman to be applicable to more than just Freelancing:
> You get work however you get work, but people keep working in a freelance world (and more and more of todays world is freelance), because their work is good, because they are easy to get along with and because they deliver the work on time. And you don’t even need all three! Two out of three is fine. People will tolerate how unpleasant you are if your work is good and you deliver it on time. People will forgive the lateness of your work if it is good and they like you. And you don’t have to be as good as everyone else if you’re on time and it’s always a pleasure to hear from you
Equating harsh even personally offensive language to "abuse" is the biggest disagreement here.
Many people, myself included, prescribe to axiom of "sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me" I understand that the current generation believes that feels are the most important thing ever...
I reject the idea that a person has the right not be offended, and I reject the idea that words on a linux mailing list are abuse
Abuse is not offense, offense is not abuse.
1. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/abuse
(Look for meaning 3)
2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abuse
Look for 'verbal abuse'.
World where people are fired from their jobs because they tell a joke someone finds offensive, I world where you are just one twit or one overheard conversation away from the outrage mob ruining your life..
In fact, the idea that you’re even bringing up such minor language at such a time really disappoints me.
Would I be correct in assuming that the majority of commenters here are from the US? (Not trying to throw shade on you Americans, just that you do tend to get needlessly flustered about swearing)
Sometimes this is actually necessary to get heard, and have the issue taken seriously. It helps providing the feedback that something REALLY wrong just happened and needs to be addressed immediately.
Imagine a sergeant talking to a trainee. What's the most efficient ?
- "Dear soldier, I think the way you handle your weapon is going to get you killed in a few moment. You should probably change that appropriately. If I may provide you this advice, of corse."
- "Stop this shit now! You're going to shoot yourself!"
Linus himself admits[1] that his outrageous insults are sort of "jokey" and a hyperbole. That's the surface. The underlying tone is to get attention without getting drowned by political correctness.
When I read his reply, I could feel the pain. I imagined I would reply back to him and say "well fuck you too." When I finished reading the email, regardless of who is more right or more wrong, I can understand and feel his frustration. I would absolutely go mad if someone messes with something I care about, and then have the guts to do fact checks.
But I still think there is room to offer an olive branch, honestly. But given how busy he is, and how many shitty patches they get, I can understand his frustration.
That being said, it almost seems like no one other than him, can do a better job in keeping up with the quality if he has to be the one yelling all the time. When Linus is no longer involved (for any reasons), can Linux kernel project continues to have quality code?
A couple years ago Linus shared his views on insult: respect should be earned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY
Worth watching.
If I've been a moron in front of the whole world, you might as well call me one; that part doesn't make a lot of difference. And if I know I haven't, well it doesn't make a lot of difference if you call me one either. I'm not five years old any more, having to chant "sticks and stones may break my bones..." to convince myself it's true, choking back the tears.
There was no "pain" on reading the reply. Only a minor frustration that there had clearly been a miscommunication about the different parts of the patch series, leading to his objections when he saw something he didn't expect. And certainly no temptation to say what you suggest. It was a technical rant. No people were harmed, and a personal reply like that would have been completely unnecessary.
I was expecting him not to like IBRS. Hell, I don't like it either. But as I said later, it still wants posting in the light of day, and a conscious decision to drop it and accept the caveats, if that's what we're going to do.
If he was right about what I did, I would make damn sure that I didn't do it again.
I believe he's being obnoxious because the people submitting these patches are trying to quietly pull some bullshit.
If you're trying to affect countless people and companies across the world with questionable actions, I don't care how bad you feel.
Let's not highlight this nonsense hoax. It isn't how embargoes work and is obviously people just trying to jump on the hype train.
And in the unlikely event that your theory regarding undisclosed vulnerabilities is true, this will certainly make them think twice about leaving Linus out of the loop again, no?
This is not clear enough and could be interpreted as incompetence on the part of the speaker
I'm not sure why saying "I don't understand this" would confer _incompetence_ rather than just not understanding. Understanding is easily gained with good communication. The original patch set clearly doesn't explain the point of the patches well, and everyone gets things wrong as well. There's no shame in saying "I don't understand this", it's not a final statement equivalent to "I will never be able to understand this".
If you don't understand it, say you don't understand it.
Unless you are a narcistic person that think you can never fail and anything you don't understand is always garbage.