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Re:Is it time for open processors? by cm2187 on Friday January 19, 2018 @02:35AM (#16184710)
If we see further fragmentation of cpu architectures it's not going to be fun for users and developers. Already the fragmentation of OS makes that cross platform is a big challenge. It would make the equivalent of a .net/java/webassembly/posix critical.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by mpweiher on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:48AM (#16184927)
> further fragmentation of cpu architectures

"Fragmentation"??

We have a huge monoculture of Intel x86/x64 on the desktop, driven by Intel's fab advantage that smothered all alternative (and often superior) architectures. And recently, a second one has sprung up with ARM on mobile.

And it hasn't really been good for the industry.

Fortunately, the Windows monoculture in OSes has been broken, so much that MS wasn't able to extend it to mobile and has been driven to give away their OS updates.

In terms of porting, CPU architecture is far less of a problem than you might think. Tiny NeXT managed to make its OS available for four CPU architectures: 68K, i386, SPARC and HP-PA, with apparently PPC and MC88K available in-house. Write Once, Run Anywhere™, all with native binaries, no intermediate layer needed.

And these were processors with different endian-ness, RISC, CISC, sliding register windows, sparse register sets etc.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by em3rgent0rdr on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:00AM (#16184963)
ISA fragmentation isn't much a worry for people who only run open source software. Debian is especially good at maintaining ports of tens of thousands of packages for 10 ISAs [1].

[1] https://www.debian.org/ports/

Re:Is it time for open processors? by em3rgent0rdr on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:37PM (#16189542)
And they still have unofficial ports of 6 other outdated ISAs complete with Debian 9.0 net install ISOs [1].

[1] http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/

Re:Is it time for open processors? by anameaname on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:34AM (#16185079)
> And it hasn't really been good for the industry.

Intel's problems over the past year aside, they have done an amazing job pushing the limits of computation over the past decades.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by tjoff on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:43AM (#16185108)
Last decade I'm not so sure. I bought the very first readily available consumer quad core CPU a decade ago (the Q6600), two years ago I upgraded and I had to pay a huge premium because I wanted more than four (I got six!) cores. And that is just starting to change today.

Not that core count is everything but consumer desktop CPUs have stagnated quite a bit. Here's to hoping AMD stirs it up a bit.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by cm2187 on Friday January 19, 2018 @05:40AM (#16185306)
Because the compute power for consumer CPU nowadays is good enough, the effort has been in reducing energy consumption. But if you look at the server / workstation side, you can get 20+ cores in a single dice.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by tjoff on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:40AM (#16185492)
Good enough relative to the competition perhaps.

Nowadays the CPU is the bottle-neck even when surfing the web and using simple (electron) text editors.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by mpweiher on Friday January 19, 2018 @11:47AM (#16187604)
But that's not really a CPU problem but a software problem. And faster CPUs won't fix it, due to Wirth's Law.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by pjmlp on Saturday January 20, 2018 @04:41AM (#16192769)
Anything built with Electron is the anathema of simple.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by imtringued on Saturday January 20, 2018 @05:19AM (#16192849)
If you consider core count desktop CPUs have had massive increases in performance in the last year and will get another massive increase when 7nm arrives.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by tjoff on Sunday January 21, 2018 @10:06AM (#16198294)
This seems to only reinforce my point?
Re:Is it time for open processors? by scroot on Friday January 19, 2018 @12:56PM (#16188216)
I would add that today, as opposed to past periods of fragmentation, there are more widely adopted universal formats, standards, and protocols. So much so that as long as different systems can support just a few key pieces of software, they'd be largely useful — no matter what runs underneath.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by icelancer on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:38AM (#16185091)
>often superior

This is a little hyperbolic. There have been occasional superior alternatives but "often" is kinda silly. By and large, the best products won - and that is despite accepting that Intel acted in anti-competitive ways in the past (Cyrix et al).

Re:Is it time for open processors? by mpweiher on Friday January 19, 2018 @05:26AM (#16185261)
> best products

Agreed, somewhat, but you are conflating "product" and "architecture". I specifically meant architecture.

Intel was usually at least one process generation ahead of competitors, and often more than that. With Moore's law still going at full tilt, that meant not only more transistors, but also faster transistors, completely overwhelming the architectural deficits.

> occasional superior alternatives but "often" is kinda silly

Hmm...just off the top of my head: Motorola 68K, MicroVAX, LSI-11, SPARC, AMD 29K, Power, RISC, MIPS, Transputer, Alpha, HP-PA, ARM for desktop, Motorola 88K, Fairchild Clipper, etc.

I'd be hard-pressed to name an architecture that wasn't superior to i386. But architecture did not matter. With Moore's law no longer also getting us faster transistors, it might matter again: https://rodneybrooks.com/the-end-of-moores-law/

Re:Is it time for open processors? by ableal on Friday January 19, 2018 @11:06AM (#16187216)
Plus the NS 32000, "likely the first 32-bit general-purpose microprocessors on the market", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx
Re:Is it time for open processors? by beojan on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:35AM (#16185081)
ARM has lots of manufacturers licensing the basic design.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by tjoff on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:08AM (#16184793)
It is generally much harder to target a another OS than to target a another CPU architecture.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by earenndil on Friday January 19, 2018 @02:45AM (#16184735)
Perhaps the solution is some form of interoperability across processors. Where they primarily run one ISA but have a dynamic converter that can based on some flag interpret memory as code from a different ISA? As chip fabbers and ISAs compete eventually a clear winner emerges and these compatibility layers are mere curiosities just like 16-bit mode on modern x86 CPUs.

Except wait, maybe this is just my cynicism talking, but I have a feeling intel has the resources to just plough forward with x86 and prevent any competition from gaining a foothold in the markets where they hold dominance (laptop, desktop, server). ARM continues to dominate mobile and perhaps some small portion of servers. POWER and SPARC stay in their little niches. Perhaps RISC-V makes its way into a couple of embedded appliances. And that's it, for the foreseeable future.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by Someone on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:39AM (#16184893)
The ISA isn’t the biggest problem. The memory model (do I need to use memory fences here? How many different kinds of those are there?) can introduce hard to reproduce bugs.

Also, relative strengths of the OS (if thread creation is relatively slow, it may not be worthwhile to multi-thread a short code fragment; one OS might have three kinds of spin locks, another only two; if there are many registers, you may need larger stacks per thread, and may want to limit the number of threads in memory-constrained devices) are bigger ones.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by weego on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:23AM (#16184835)
Interop relies on a single standard as a benchmark and history tells us that people are incapable of being content with a standard that isn't exactly how they imagined it and would rather fragment and live and die on their own hill than play nice.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by earenndil on Friday January 19, 2018 @11:00AM (#16187169)
> Interop relies on a single standard as a benchmark

Not so! Imagine that each processor is made by their own company (to simplify it) and has its own ISA. Thus, processor A can emulate processors B and C, B can emulate A and C, and C can emulate A and B.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by mcny on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:36AM (#16184882)
I'm just amazed how we have two clipboards when I use Linux. Like we can't decide something so stupidly simple.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by mkl on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:21AM (#16185973)
The two different clipboards are fantastic! Select then middle click is one of the things I miss most on Windows, and it's really convenient that that preserves the copy-paste clipboard.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by mcny on Sunday January 21, 2018 @11:57AM (#16198750)
Reminds me of https://xkcd.com/1172/

I am so glad to hear they are fixing this in wayland and there will be only one clipboard by default going forward.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by andrew3726 on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:44AM (#16184913)
Well, that's been fixed with Wayland, right?
Re:Is it time for open processors? by jwilk on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:17AM (#16185007)
How?
Re:Is it time for open processors? by pjmlp on Friday January 19, 2018 @07:19AM (#16185650)
Re:Is it time for open processors? by cesarb on Saturday January 20, 2018 @07:47AM (#16193153)
I'm running on Wayland at this moment (Gnome 3 on Fedora), and just tested on the terminal. It has two: I can copy something with Ctrl-Shift-C, then select something else, then paste with Ctrl-Shift-V, then paste with middle-click; the selection didn't override what I had copied, and middle-click pasted what was selected.

So you still have two, at least with Gnome 3 on Wayland.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by tathougies on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:08AM (#16184794)
Almost all code today is written in languages that run in vms(java, .net), are interpreted (python, ruby, js), or easily compile across cpu architectures. Operating systems are a different story but changing the underlying ISA is really not a huge deal

IME it’s harder to port to a new os than a new ISA.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by IshKebab on Friday January 19, 2018 @05:06AM (#16185190)
A lot of code is, but are you really going to ignore C++, Go, Rust, etc? Most games are written in C++, as are most large desktop apps.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by pjmlp on Friday January 19, 2018 @07:14AM (#16185625)
All of them quite portable, with enough abstraction libraries available to make it a moot point, unless I really want to dive into details.

The only programming language I actually do have care about the underlying OS is C, due to its dependency on POSIX as an extension of ANSI libc.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by tathougies on Sunday January 21, 2018 @01:15AM (#16197082)
C++ is fairly straightforward to port across architectures, especially since most architectures today are going to be 64-bit or more.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by slrz on Friday January 19, 2018 @12:54PM (#16188198)
And you can be sure that every new ISA will have a port of GCC and LLVM, a Go compiler and everything else that's worthwile.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by cm2187 on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:17AM (#16184820)
It may be, but from a user point of view, unless the developer targeted that architecture, you are out of luck using that software. And then you end up with “I need software 1 but it only works on OS A and cpu X and I also need software 2 that only runs on OS B and cpu Y”. We are back in the 80s!
Re:Is it time for open processors? by adrianN on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:06AM (#16184980)
Except today we have open source that can be recompiled without the author's explicit approval and we have a large collection of software that runs in some VM or other. There is also a variety of services as a software substitute that run on some cloud.
Re:Is it time for open processors? by pjmlp on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:58AM (#16184954)
Actually I liked the 80's and early 90's.

Computers were sold with hardware and software designed to work together and provide a full stack experience.

Not a puzzle of bits-and-pieces.

Re:Is it time for open processors? by mcny on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:41AM (#16184900)
Is this something the distribution maintainers are supposed to track? Let's say package x is available on Debian and decisions is available on the raspberry pi. The package maintainers on Debian side are the people who compile and ship the binaries for raspberry pi, no? Are the authors involved in this at all? Or is it that the package maintainers take a more handsfree approach and only build on platforms that the authors have said the software works on?
Re:Is it time for open processors? by pjmlp on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:54AM (#16184947)
What further fragmentation?

Do you have any experience how it was to target the home market before PCs and Windows took over it?