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Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by ams6110 on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @10:59AM (#16168925)
Your lawyer should advise you but ultimately follow your instructions. If he feels (or knows) you are guilty and you want to plead otherwise, he should decline to represent you.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by basseq on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:50AM (#16169446)
> Your lawyer should advise you but ultimately follow your instructions.

... or resign.

There are lots of instances in professional services where you simply have to say 'no'. If you're not willing or able to represent your client in the way they want to be represented, the correct response is, "I'm sorry, but I'll be unable to continue to advise and represent you on this matter."

In the doctor example above, the doctor will—and should—absolutely refuse to follow your instructions to cut off your arm. (If you are insistent, you can probably find someone in the body modification community to do it for you, though a) it's probably illegal for them to do so and b) don't confuse that with legitimate medical intervention.)

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by emodendroket on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:53AM (#16169485)
What do you suppose it means to "decline to represent" someone?
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by basseq on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @12:18PM (#16169707)
Exactly that! I could swear that part wasn't in there when I started responding, but I guess I honed in on the first sentence and my reading comprehension suffered. Mea culpa.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:47PM (#16170565)
> ... or resign.

Lawyers may not be free to do so, though they can try.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by Balgair on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:32PM (#16170425)
I mean, the local Bar would have a lot to say about lawyers that don't do what the client tells them to do. And, at least in the Common Law system it is typical that lawyers will argue that guilty people are not guilty all the time. Like, the news is full of these types of cases. And the ethics of representing the guilty have been worked out pretty well by now; it's really necessary. Most Bar Associations are pretty strict and hand out disbarments all the time for scummy lawyers.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by brians on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:12AM (#16169041)
Surely if he knows you’re guilty, but they’ll never prove it, the question is more complicated?
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by buckminster on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:34AM (#16169275)
In the UK a lawyer has duties towards both his client and the court. For a lawyer to lie to the court is a serious breach of his professional ethics. To represent a client he knows to be guilty on a not guilty plea is to lie to the court.

In reality there is usually wriggle room concerning motive or the suitability of the charge, say. But I know a lawyer who has turned away clients who have flat out confessed to him.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by SilasX on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:55PM (#16170622)
I'm no expert, but that doesn't sound right. Specifically, it contradicts my model of Anglo-American jurisprudence, where I expect:

1) Defendants have the right to a trial, regardless of how "obviously guilty" they are in anyone's eyes.

2) Trials are, in part, about whether the state has met its burden to prove the elements of the case, regardless of the lay truth of the accused's guilt. [A]

3) Given the above, the work of a lawyer (in a trial) does not inherently involve the representation that "this defendant is innocent", but only that "there is insufficient evidence of that element of the case", which needn't be a fraud on the court, even if the prosecution's claim is true.

(With that said, more specific lies can be off limits.)

[A] A Man for All Seasons: "The world must judge according to its wits; this court must judge according to the law."

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by buckminster on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @06:57PM (#16173277)
1) Yes. The lawyer can only know the client is guilty if the client tells him.

2) Yes.

3) Yes. The difficulty arises when the lawyer has been provided with evidence by the client which supports the charge.

Ultimately it's the lawyers job to present the client's case, however implausible. However, "I did it but I want to pretend I didn't" isn't a case, it's a lie.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by SilasX on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @08:01PM (#16173709)
So... you're agreeing or disagreeing that a lawyer can ethically represent a client who he believes "did it" by arguing that the evidence is insufficient?

If you agree, that's walking back on your original comment; if you disagree, that seems to go sharply against 1/2/3.

Edit: As the others note, this is going sharply against well-known legal principles. Do you have any authoritative citation that UK lawyers can't represent clients at all on a not-guilty plea while believing them to have "done it"?

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:44AM (#16169375)
Isn't there a famous movie scene where the murderer approaches a lawyer, who cuts him off and advises him on what a lawyer can do. (Anatomy of a Murder? Jimmy Stewart). He covers the issue of what the lawyer knows, and what he can do in each case. Pretty good writing.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by mcguire on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:52AM (#16169466)
I seem to recall another scene from Rumpole, where the character has taken on a student intern or something. While interviewing the client, the student asks, "But did you do it?" and Rumpole drags him aside and tells him, "Never ask that."
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by berns on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:46AM (#16169396)
> To represent a client he knows to be guilty on a not guilty plea is to lie to the court.

But how does he know his client is guilty? Is he supposed to judge his client?

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by buckminster on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:54AM (#16169494)
The guilt doesn't matter in a sense. For example, if the client tells the lawyer he robbed the bank, the lawyer cannot try to persuade the court that the client was somewhere else because he knows it isn't true.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by nkrisc on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:20PM (#16170297)
But how does the lawyer know it isn't true? Is the lawyer supposed to pass judgement on the evidence? Isn't that what the trial is for in the first place?
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by dsp1234 on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:37PM (#16170471)
if the client tells the lawyer he robbed the bank

What reason would the attorney have for not believing the information that the client confesses voluntarily under the veil of attorney-client privilege?.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:54PM (#16170615)
The attorney could believe that his client is a pathological liar, among a near infinite array of other possibilities.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by gknoy on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:52PM (#16170602)
Sometimes people lie to protect other people, or to conceal a secret that they might feel to be more devastating.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by testvox on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @04:59PM (#16172398)
Insanity, duress, maybe the defendant is trying to take credit for another person's crime in order to protect them.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by berns on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @12:31PM (#16169846)
I'm thinking how what you say relates to this case specifically. The client insisted in his innocence. Even if the attorney considers the evidence overwhelming, he could plead his client innocent without lying.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @12:35PM (#16169896)
Wow.

Considering the historical reliability of the ways in which we find people guilty of crimes that sounds like a terrible system.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by peg_leg on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:16AM (#16169069)
If the mitigation of guilt is a not guilty plea then it's rather simple.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by mcguire on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:47AM (#16169403)
In this case, wasn't the lawyer a public defender assigned to the case?

Edit: the first was, the second was hired by the family, who filed that his client was indigent and he was to be paid from public defense monies.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by throwaway2048 on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:53AM (#16169486)
This is a critical question, public defenders in the USA practically force their clients to plede out, due to massive caseload.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by emodendroket on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @11:57AM (#16169525)
Also one easily answered by the article.

> But he was continually at odds with his public defenders, eventually firing them for refusing to file subpoenas he prepared for a dozen witnesses, who he said could support his alibi defense and other claims. He briefly acted as his own lawyer until his parents hired Larry English to defend him, and even then, the defendant continued to file motions in his own defense.

> English repeatedly advised McCoy to plead guilty in exchange for life in prison instead of the death penalty or to plead not guilty by reason of insanity, but McCoy repeatedly refused, insisting that he was innocent.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by jandrese on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @12:54PM (#16170084)
This is an unenviable position, to be innocent but everybody else assumes you're guilty and you don't have the resources to mount a proper defense so the "best" advice you can get is to lie and say that you are guilty so maybe the state won't kill you.

This is how innocent people end up on death row.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:51PM (#16170596)
> This is an unenviable position, to be innocent but everybody else assumes you're guilty

A lawyer advising you to plea guilty is not necessarily assuming you are guilty any more than a lawyer saying that you have a solid basis for a not guilty plea necessarily assumes you are factually not guilty.

The lawyer is advising you on their opinion of where you will get the best (which may merely be “least terrible”) result from the legal system.

Now, they may or may not be doing a decent job of that, but that's a different issue.

Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by emodendroket on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @01:25PM (#16170357)
I agree that it's a serious issue, but it seems kind of ancillary to this one.
Re:Do You Have the Right to Plead Not Guilty When Your Lawye... by milesvp on Wednesday January 17, 2018 @06:38PM (#16173141)
Not from my experience. In the US I personally know a couple of public defenders, and while their case loads are big, the reason they plead guilty so much is because that's the game that the prosecutors play. The prosecutors want a slam dunk, but a trial may find the defendant not guilty. So the prosecutor trades certainty for reduced sentences. If you're lucky, you can trade down to a misdemeanor to avoid felony charges, in which case pleading guilty is a no brainer since felonies take away a lot of liberties.

As a side note, I've been told that public defenders will actually tend to get better deals from prosecutors than private counsel because they have to work together so much that they tend to know when the prosecutor will bend.

Also, I do not condone plea bargaining. I think it generally distorts justice in ways that are very corrupt, and create very mis-aligned incentives.