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Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Joeri on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:02AM (#16060273)
Counterpoint from a fellow european. I found americans to not be more selfish, but more appreciative of self-reliance. In europe in most countries the philosophy is that of the nanny state, taking care of its citizens no matter what got them into a care-needing situation. In much of the US there’s much more a perception of responsibility for your own success, with negative individual outcomes being considered a necessary evil linked to personal freedom.

Looking at the stats clearly the US needs a little more nanny state to generate better outcomes for the bottom half of the country. But equally europe needs more appreciation of self-reliance and entrepreneurship to enable a richer startup culture and let the EU become an economic leader instead of follower.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Gustomaximus on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:51AM (#16060536)
Sweden and Norway, both flagship nanny states are extremely entrepreneurial and not just by volume but success. This goes against the logic you can't have social support and people reaching for entrepreneurial success.

I think, though know this is anecdotal, US startup success is based largely on its market size of both consumers and venture capital.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Jommi on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:28AM (#16061735)
How on earth is Norway entrepreneurial by volume OR success?
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by i_call_solo on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @12:37PM (#16062994)
It's not. They have a lot of oil which allows them to give back to their citizens.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by wooter on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:05PM (#16064535)
and shit on the environment. this comment thread is full of the exact condescension that conservatives and libertarians are sick of. People who uphold the Constitution and the vision of the Founders are comically uninformed? Stanford's Hoover Institute is comically uninformed? What a joke.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by knieveltech on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:23PM (#16064697)
Given every libertarian/conservative economic theory that's been advanced since Reagan entered office has been tried and without exception resulted in increased income inequality and bricking the economy, comically uninformed seems pretty accurate. Given conservatives collective track record of having legislation thrown out in court on constitutional grounds claims of upholding it are likewise clearly unfounded.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by wooter on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:31PM (#16072138)
Totally and utterly false and uninfotmed nonsense. Quite accurate if leftist policies - the failures of which can be measured and hundreds of millions of dead bodies and collapsed economies.

Is Peter Thiel comically uninformed?

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by knieveltech on Friday January 05, 2018 @02:28AM (#16077162)
Fascinating. So we should ignore Kansas' state economy going belly up due to grotesque mismanagement by "conservatives" attempting to implement libertarian-inspired economic policies? What about the sharp (and enduring) spikes in income inequality and the market crashes provoked by the Reagan and Bush Jr. regimes? We pretending basic economic indicators are hard to track or something?

Incidentally, you probably don't want to drag body counts into a conversation that's teetering on the brink of a larger critique of capitalism. Unless, that is, you'd like to review deaths world-wide from preventable illness due to lack of access to healthcare? In the US alone it's estimated to be 45,000 deaths annually. Meanwhile Texas (in all it's staunch conservative glory) has 3rd world infant mortality rates.

Regarding collapsed leftist economies, what percentage of these are attributable to inherent failures of socialist policy vs simple economic sabotage and regime tampering by the US and it's allies? Would you like to review what the CIA has been up to since the 1950's?

Or would you rather simply review the number of times conservative legislators have run afoul of the constitution just in the last 5 years? We can start with the electoral maps of North Carolina getting chucked over illegal racist gerrymandering, and a thick stack of executive orders that have died in a judge's trash can this year.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by ghostbrainalpha on Thursday January 04, 2018 @02:07PM (#16073090)
51% of Republicans STILL believe Barack Obama was born in Kenya. http://www.newsweek.com/trump-birther-obama-poll-republicans...

There are definitely principled conservatives that are highly informed.

But the strategy the Republican party and media uses to win elections, includes a lot of disinformation and caters to the uninformed.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by adamiscool8 on Thursday January 04, 2018 @03:02PM (#16073543)
50% of Democrats believed George W Bush was complicit in 9/11 [1].

People like to believe their own tribe is the exalted one, but exploiting the uninformed isn't a partisan strategy.

[1] https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2011/04/more-than-h...

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by triplesec on Friday January 05, 2018 @12:51PM (#16080185)
and that's a false equivalence. It is provably true that Obama wasn't born in Kenya. However, it is plausible that some in government (not just W) wanted that war. The survey you refer to does not compare to the simple yes/no of the Birther idiocy
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by tytytytytytytyt on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:31PM (#16066880)
As if upholding "the Constitution and the vision of the Founders" magically makes people informed about everything else?
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by lucideer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:58PM (#16065077)
I presume you're considering this per capita, and not a raw comparison of volume compare to the US? Norway has a population of around 5 million.

Whether comparing very large and very small populations is reasonable is a separate question mind you, but that aside, the comment stands.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by prepend on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:58PM (#16067373)
Having lots of natural resources entrepreneutrial.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by spiderfarmer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:17AM (#16060691)
That's true, a lot of European startups focus on making it in their local market and from there branch out to other countries, whereas startups in the US are from their inception focussing on their large, single market with no language barriers.

I think that's slowly changing. Dutch startups are told to think big nowadays and access to venture capital is also improving.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Jommi on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:27AM (#16061728)
What are you talking about? That's the complete opposite of what happens.

Nordic startups that focus too much on their local market die. The whole point of startups is to SCALE. This cannot be when the country you live in has less population than greater LA.

What actually happens is that the startups here are "Global-first". They immedietly start talking about branching overseas and meeting with investors that can help them do so.

It's actually the SV startups that can huddle in their bubble for years of time, before doing an easy US wide launch, that already is a huge market.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:26AM (#16061177)
Is that really true of Silicon Valley startups? It seems that they start focusing on international sales shortly after their inception, mostly from VC pressure. Most SV startups that get big are international by default (can you think of one that wasn’t?).
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Retric on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:56AM (#16061435)
Uber then named UberCab was limited to just San Francisco at the start, they then did other US cities before going international over a year later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Uber

Even international by default aka pure internet companies like Facebook start as English only and tend to stay that way for a long time.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by monocasa on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:55AM (#16062005)
Facebook was far from international by default. They scaled very slowly, individual college by college (you needed an email address on a whitelisted .edu domain).
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Retric on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @01:06PM (#16063334)
You could still use it in a foreign country when you went home for the summer or on a vacation etc. Edu only was all about fake exclusivity and building a network effect not inherent necessity.

Uber on the other hand is only useful inside specific cities.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by monocasa on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:07PM (#16063996)
No, it was about managing the growth curve. Nobody can turn on a website for the world all at once. It would be better for network building if they could.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Retric on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:16PM (#16065227)
It's more than just growth curve as they could have simply limited signups to handle growth issues.

Remember they where .edu only for 2 years even thought they had significant funding. Their core problem was if nobody in Australia signs up then it's boring for the first users in Australia. However, by starting with an EDU focus they could leverage word of mouth to grow a network by location.

The path was starting a Harvard, then other ivy's, then other US collages, then US high-schools. That's clearly designed to leverage exclusivity.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:07AM (#16062113)
Sure, then how does that compare to non-SV startups in Europe?

How long was Facebook English only after they got VC?

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by zip1234 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:46AM (#16061347)
Yes, I think you are right. There are a lot of factors involved. Hard to say that US success is due to specific things. California is a US state that has higher social support and higher taxes but does well economically. It is too simplistic to say the philosophy of the country is a certain way therefore success.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by thrden on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @12:00PM (#16062669)
California has aspects of it that do well economically, overall its situation is quite dismal. It boasts the COLA adjusted highest poverty rate in the country. Worse than Mississippi, West Virginia or Alabama.

[1]http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/jan/20/...

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by nawgszy on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @01:27PM (#16063566)
From my experience as someone having moved to California from Canada, it seems there is quite a large homeless population which actively chooses to be in California as opposed to other places owing to its extremely mild climate.

Since I moved to San Jose, it's only rained a handful of times, and this place's harsh colds of winter have reached such dreadful temperatures as I'd witness on a mild fall day in my former country of residence.

That certainly can't help those numbers, even if I do think the absurd costs of living are quite bad, depressing the QOL for everyone outside of the engineer class here.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by woolvalley on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:48PM (#16064402)
Homeless populations are small silver of people measured in thousands, compared the to millions in poverty in california.

And of those homeless, a fraction of them create the 'bad experience' chronic homeless with drug or mental problems that make most people dislike the homeless.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by kindatrue on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @01:43PM (#16063744)
The median home price to median income ratio in San Francisco is 10.8x.

In San Jose it is 7.8x.

Nationally, it is 3.8x (5.8x in NYC metro).

http://www.burbed.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/SFvNational...

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by oreo81 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:38PM (#16064854)
California is doing well economically? No it's not.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by jpttsn on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:36AM (#16061797)
If not for NATO Sweden and Norway might well be part of Russia.

Nations are not isolated systems. Comparing national policies as though they didn’t interact gives wrong answers.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by aleksei on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:01AM (#16062060)
I find that hard to believe, given that Finland, sitting between Russia and Sweden and Norway, is not a part of Russia.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by rm_-rf_slash on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:25AM (#16062299)
Finland was invaded by the USSR multiple times and never got the eastern city of Vyborg (as well as a large chunk of national territory) back from Russia, even after the USSR collapsed.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by lutorm on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:12PM (#16064050)
Except Finland was never invaded by the USSR at any time after WW2, so NATO can't be implicated in any way for those.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by myaso on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @01:09PM (#16063381)
That territory is the price for being in bed with the Germans -- it's like people conveniently seem to forget why it is so; my mother likes to talk about history when she has had too much wine, it's surprising there is anything left between Stalingrad and Berlin -- I still get mistaken for being Jewish which is ironic considering Jews didn't exist in the region I'm from after around 1944 - also about 25% to 30% of the civilian population. Given how much a pain in the ass the Winter War was (my grandfather volunteered for the Red Army in the 1930s) somebody likely decided it simply wasn't worth it at some point to have the Scandinavian countries be part of the USSR -- has it really worked out that bad in the end? Best of both worlds between capitalism/socialism and widely regarded as a region people want to live in.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by qume on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:17AM (#16068228)
Can someone please explain why this well written post was downvoted?
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by braythwayt on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:11PM (#16065184)
FYI, Finland's relationship with Russia inspired an entire word to describe a country that is not formally occupied, but behaves as if it were:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by scirocco on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:32AM (#16060785)
Please. For innovation, Denmark and Finland plays in a different league than Norway. /the swede
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @12:02PM (#16062683)
Entrepreneurship and cultural appreciation self reliance/independence don't necessarily go together. I think it was a mistake of the GP comment to make that link.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by ThomPete on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:07AM (#16061031)
Sweden is, not Norwawy.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by dclowd9901 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:00PM (#16063934)
As an American, getting very sick or hurt shouldn't cause you to lose your entire livelihood. There's no choice there (except in some circumstances). Yet we also perceive "bad luck" as a choice or a matter of circumstances that were the natural outcome of choices either you made or your parents or their parents made.

Unless, of course, you're the one who's afflicted, then all of a sudden, it's a great tragedy and it wasn't your fault. In other words, we're full of shit.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by oreo81 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:56PM (#16065036)
>getting very sick or hurt shouldn't cause you to lose your entire livelihood.

We've had great mechanism to address this, namely insurance and savings. The underlying principle here is planning ahead, and sacrificing some of today's sweet instant gratification in exchange for protection tomorrow should you need it. This is a concept that people have seemed to lose sight of, so we're now seeing people want protection today even though they made no sacrifice yesterday. Those people with zero foresight have now ruined it for the people that did plan ahead.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by FireBeyond on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @05:25PM (#16065896)
Yeah, as someone who works in healthcare IT, what we call "insurance" in the US for healthcare in no way resembles a proper insurance model. It's heavily slanted in favor of the insurer, who have zero hesitation kicking people out of the pool, despite having accounted for their costs in their actuarial tables. Despite the fact that the risk of having condition X in the population doesn't change, you're subject to limitations and/or outright rejection should you choose to use that free market you seem so fond of. You can equally be kicked out of that pool despite having made that sacrifice you describe.

For example, health insurers have been found to have done such things as kick cancer patients off insurance as a pre-existing condition, based on previous general practitioner visits. "Oh, we, and you, didn't know it was cancer at the time, you were just sick. But since you were sick shortly after getting insurance, you most likely already had cancer. Therefore it was a pre-existing condition, you didn't disclose it, whether or not you knew about it, and we are terminating your coverage back to the first physician visit about your illness".

Or "We are refusing to cover the costs of the ambulance/air ambulance ride that ferried you to the trauma center after your MVA, because that ride wasn't pre-approved by a call to the insurer".

Both of the above examples happened. I'm not sure what should have happened in either case, but I'm pretty sure in the latter it wasn't, "Hello, Blue Cross? This is John, I'm a paramedic working on one of your patients who was hit by a truck. We would like to fly him to the hospital due to his extensive multisystem trauma but we need your approval. His name? Hang on, let me find his wallet. No, that's Smythe, S-M-Y-T-H-E, sorry, it's a bit loud with the jaws of life in the background... Yes, I can hold for a nurse consult..."

Health insurance in the US is amortization of costs, and has little to do with risk pooling and actuarials.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by mrpopo on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:22AM (#16060383)
> But equally europe needs more appreciation of self-reliance and entrepreneurship to enable a richer startup culture and let the EU become an economic leader instead of follower.

Does it? Is the purpose of a nation state to compete with others based on economic metrics? Yes, I know that most countries are doing that, but in a thread where we compare individualism/selfishness with nanny/"charity" state, shouldn't this competition be questioned?

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by spiderfarmer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:35AM (#16060454)
Yes it should be questioned. Would I enjoy being filthy rich, while my neighbour is struggling with his hospital bills? Hell no. For me government is about taking care of the sick, poor and vulnerable as much as taking care of wannabe millionairs.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Jedd on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:21AM (#16060723)
> For me government is about taking care of the sick, poor and vulnerable as much as taking care of wannabe millionairs.

For me, I'd say that society is about taking care of everyone -- government should merely (!) play the role of the administrator in that process.

I always feel that way too many people I speak to think that 'the government' is some kind of independent force, rather than a reflection of what society wants. (Sure, in many cases, it really is a reflection of what a tiny handful of people orchestrate -- but since we're talking idealism here...)

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by mcv on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:49AM (#16060898)
Exactly. The government should represent the will of the people. Too often I see people argue from the point that government is intrinsically some alien entity they have no control over, but when that's the case, that just means your government is wrong. Government should represent the people, and any government that doesn't, needs to be fixed. (The US government certainly needs to be fixed.)
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by dnautics on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:56AM (#16062007)
that's really dangerous, because the will of the people can get really hairy.

Besides, if the will of the people is to take care of everyone through social services, then why do you need a government to do it? It should just happen naturally. What you are saying, is that a few select people that are chosen by a popularity contest should be given the authority to make people do things against their will.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:15AM (#16062200)
Government is always the will of some people.

The question is - cui bono?

Your alternative presumably is the current system, where a few self-selected people, kept in power exclusively by wealth, caste, and social connections - often in defiance of real wisdom or foresight - force everyone else to act in ways that benefit that self-sustaining governing class at the expense of everyone else.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by dnautics on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:46AM (#16062547)
No, how about many people act together voluntarily in a distributed system of social support that is resilient to attack by small numbers of powerful people?
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by piva00 on Friday January 05, 2018 @05:23AM (#16077758)
Because people need to pool into something to be able to afford big projects for the benefit of all. Government is the effect of this, you collect taxes so you can afford to build a shiny new hospital to attend to a region.

If you want to pool resources collectively in a smaller scale you are just replicating this structure with different powerful people, or different structure of power, but a society will always need it, doesn't matter if resources are money, materials or labour.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Jedd on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @06:45PM (#16066622)
> that's really dangerous, because the will of the people can get really hairy.

Yes, but that's a direct consequence of having an ill-informed, poorly educated , credulous, angry, compliant majority. Societies where the elite are looking to retain their power base will typically channel fewer resources to public education, and more to the institutions that reinforce their own position.

Difficult to undo once it's been started, and (IMO) it's been happening for a very long time in AU, UK, US -- and presumably almost everywhere else that self-identifies as a capitalist democracy.

So, yes, the will of the people can get hairy, but of the two options -- force the agenda of the elite upon everyone else, or work towards a better society -- the preferable option very much depends which of those groups you're in right now.

Also noting that if you're in the uninformed group, you may not recognise that, or think anything needs changing.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by spiderfarmer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:33AM (#16060794)
For me, I don't think the driving forces of capatilism are always compatible with 'caring for people' and that there are tasks that are better left to governmental organizations.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Jedd on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:46AM (#16060869)
Yes, agreed entirely -- I didn't mean that more things should be privatised (I actually think many things should either remain, or be re-, nationalised). I meant that government should be acting in a way that reflects the will of an informed, thoughtful, responsible, empathetic society ... rather than 'inflicting' responsibility upon its citizens.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by logicchains on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:43AM (#16060500)
>Would I enjoy being filthy rich, while my neighbour is struggling with his hospital bills? Hell no.

Nobody would stop you from helping with your neighbour's hospital bill if you were filthy rich.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by awj on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @12:17PM (#16062815)
That's quite possibly the most inefficient way to handle such a thing. As a reminder: there's a very good chance that, with healthcare, inefficiency => people die.

Beyond that, it's an insulting way to avoid having a real discussion on this issue. If the charity of the rich were enough to solve this social problem, we wouldn't be talking about it. Why are you participating in these discussions if the only solution you have to offer has been tried and failed for most of human history?

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by logicchains on Thursday January 04, 2018 @06:01AM (#16069377)
>Why are you participating in these discussions if the only solution you have to offer has been tried and failed for most of human history?

I'm sorry, I was unaware of the existing solution that has succeeded at solving all social problems in the countries in which it's implemented.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by awj on Thursday January 04, 2018 @03:39PM (#16073865)
You're the one saying we should effectively stick with the current mechanism, despite its flaws. The onus isn't on me to provide an alternative, it's on you to defend a problematic solution.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by logicchains on Thursday January 04, 2018 @11:17PM (#16076494)
>You're the one saying we should effectively stick with the current mechanism, despite its flaws. The onus isn't on me to provide an alternative, it's on you to defend a problematic solution.

If the alternative is not flawless, then one needs to show that the disadvantages of the alternative vs the current situation are outweighed by its advantages over the current system.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by oreo81 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:07PM (#16065150)
That sounds like the most efficient way to handle such a thing. Please explain...
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by wooter on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:10PM (#16064580)
> Why are you participating in these discussions if the only solution you have to offer has been tried and failed for most of human history?

So you agree we should stop massive government programs that have always resulted in centralization, bankruptcy, and systemic poverty? Venezuela, Cuba, USSR, Greece, Spain, Italy, China, ... How much more failure do you need to realize Government isnt the answer?

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by braythwayt on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:13PM (#16065203)
Let me know when Canada fails. Or Germany. Or Sweden. Or Norway. Or... Or... Or...
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by wooter on Thursday January 04, 2018 @06:08PM (#16074969)
https://mises.org/blog/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-state...

they would be amongst the poorest states by median household income, purchasing power parity, cost of living, and gdp per capita

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by braythwayt on Friday January 05, 2018 @02:19PM (#16080863)
So your argument is that these statistics "prove" that Sweden and Germany's people are worse off than the citizens of most US states?

First, it would seem that all those people are too ignorant to understand how much better their lives would be if they were, for example, living in Michigan. If only we could teach them how unhappy they are!

Second, the claim that the people are "poorer" is not a cogent claim that their countries are failures. Your argument reminds me of something I tell my children:

"Human beings are the most successful form of life on Earth, by all the metrics that humans choose to measure success."

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by spiderfarmer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:52AM (#16060540)
Sure, I could add if/thens to my apps for each specific undesirable scenario, but I would much rather prefer to solve the underlying bugs.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by gepi79 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:09AM (#16060654)
I prefer a consistent reliable efficient health care system and social security system to philantropy, charity and donations as well.

The USA is still the violent prudish religious DIY Wild West compared to most areas in Europe (East-Europe excluded that is more like the USA).

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by dnautics on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:57AM (#16062029)
> a consistent reliable efficient health care system

what makes you think that this is reasonable for government to provide? How do you know that the era 1950-20xx is not an anomaly? If you look at the broad scope of history, governments are not very good at doing the things that you suggest they should be doing.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by tonyarkles on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:08PM (#16064005)
> what makes you think that this is reasonable for government to provide?

[disclosure: am Canadian]

Pragmatically, the fact that it works well and has reasonably good outcomes in every first world country other than the United States.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by refurb on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:07PM (#16064556)
You need to do more research. There are several first world countries where medical insurance is private.

I'll let you google and find out which ones.

They seem to work just fine.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by tonyarkles on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:54PM (#16065016)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_univers... looks like a pretty reasonable list. The US definitely stands out on the No lists.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by refurb on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:01PM (#16067067)
Uh... that's universal health insurance. It has nothing to do with whether or not the system is private.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by tonyarkles on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:36PM (#16068071)
Either way... I personally don't care much whether it's run by the government or not, but rather that the government does what's necessary to have free/super low cost health care for everyone (On the order of $20 for a doctor's visit). Maybe the government runs it itself; maybe it provides the funding for private organizations to provide the health care.

Know what's awesome? Knowing that I can break my arm and have it taken care of with virtually no out-of-pocket cost.

Tax-wise, I'm totally speculating here because I don't know the ins-and-outs of the American tax system, but here we go.

https://simpletax.ca/calculator https://www.irscalculators.com/tax-brackets-calculator.php

I'm going off of $85,000USD/$106571CAD (equivalent today according to Google), and using California.

California: total tax paid $25,252.56USD, you keep $59,747USD

Saskatchewan: total tax paid $30,465CAD ($24,308.33USD), you keep $76,106CAD ($60,702.91USD)

So on the same amount of income, we pay about the same as California residents, but all of our health care costs come out of the taxes we've paid. Seems like a pretty good deal, not having to pay any health insurance premiums on top of that.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by refurb on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:06PM (#16071942)
Doing a conversion of USD to equivalent CAD is not reasonable. Salaries are generally higher, dollar for dollar in the USD.

You're also ignoring the multiple tax breaks available in the US that aren't an option in Canada: mortgage interest deduction, uncapped 401K contribution, etc.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by tonyarkles on Thursday January 04, 2018 @01:34PM (#16072783)
We can keep going here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_California_locations_b... http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/f...

Median family income in California: $70,187 USD Median family income in Saskatchewan: $86,970 CAD ($69,516.86 USD)

The currency conversion seems pretty reasonable. And yes, I'm ignoring the various tax breaks available on both sides, as well as a number of other perks (e.g. 55% paid maternity/paternity leave for 35 weeks). We're in the same ballpark here though.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:37PM (#16064844)
Every OECD country except the United States and, at one point, Mexico—though they may now, too—has universal healthcare largely driven by government mandates, though the systems may be either direct government programs, mandated private insurance, or a combination.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by gepi79 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @06:38PM (#16066576)
I see nothing that could end the general health care system. Unlike political opinions, science and technology progress (only).

European politicians prognose bad times because of the demography (too many old persons, too few young persons).

IMO politicians and many experts are very bad at predicting the future. Like many other people, they feel smart when they prognose problems and anounce austerity.

IMO technology and automation could and probably will solve any poverty problem soon enough for most Europeans. Even today, most poverty in the world is a political problem and not a natural or technical necessity.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by mikeash on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:33PM (#16064799)
If you look at the broad scope of history, health care is useless or worse. 1950 onwards is a major anomaly in nearly every area. We’re in that anomaly, so looking to earlier eras for lessons in things they didn’t have and wouldn’t have imagined is pointless.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by myaso on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:25PM (#16064172)
Is medical care something people need? That's how you tell if the government needs to provide it or subsidize it -- the market like US politics has schizophrenia which doesn't lead to a terribly efficient mechanism for allocating certain resources - it's great at giving people what they want. The right will come around eventually and maybe it will a little harder since there is a larger population to draw from to form a critical mass of stupidity. You just need to wait for the entrenched living carcasses that have been in the game since the 70's & 80's to die out gradually before anything will really change -- I will bet anything this is why kings and emperors were convinced to drink mercury.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by oreo81 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:22PM (#16065293)
>Is medical care something people need?

No, nor is it a right. It's a luxury.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by FireBeyond on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @06:00PM (#16066264)
What makes law enforcement a need, or a right, something that you're willing to stand up for, in your previous comments, but not health care?
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by oreo81 on Thursday January 04, 2018 @12:38PM (#16072226)
It's not a need or a right, it protects your rights. A right is something your have by nature, not something that can be provided to you by others.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by myaso on Saturday January 06, 2018 @06:08AM (#16084764)
Life is not a need or a natural right. Nature can continue to grind on regardless of what you think. It seems you think that having other people enforce a system that offers you guarantees is something you are automatically entitled to having -- how much security you get is dependent upon the resources of the larger group, just like all other rights.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by ytwySXpMbS on Friday January 05, 2018 @01:09PM (#16080331)
Saying people don't need healthcare is like saying people don't need food. Whether a country's government should let people starve or die of cardiac arrest on the streets is another question, but I would say from a moral standpoint that it shouldn't.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:27AM (#16062316)
If you look at the broad scope of history, cannibalism is a good thing.

I suggest you revise your argument to one that's more plausible and convincing.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by dnautics on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:49AM (#16062569)
There's a mechanistic reason why it's a bad choice. Government is by necessity a hierarchical system, by its very nature its process of allocating resources requires a concentration of wealth and power. From first principles, there's no way around it. Any system that enforces 'good feels' top-down is unstable and has a half-life; systems of social support will eventually be redirected to benefit the wealthy. For example, if we go to single payer healthcare, it eventually will become a vector for lining the pockets of phamaceutical companies.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by spiderfarmer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:03PM (#16063963)
'Good feels' there you have it. You think empathic people are just virtue signalling, totally ignoring the benefits of a more social democracy. You believe in a system that's totally unfair to a lot of people, ignoring that I am from a country that proves that there's absolutely another way.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by dnautics on Thursday January 04, 2018 @02:36AM (#16068645)
you're not an ethnic minority, are you? You have no clue what it means for society to be unfair, and it has nothing to do with money.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by myaso on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:53PM (#16064447)
Doing what is right isn't the same as "good feels" -- does conceding your own personal self interests on behalf of a group feel good? Trying to empty the ocean with a bucket is "good feels". You present a theoretical reason against a system that works already in other jurisdictions -- this is not some far off space age shit with flying saucers, it can be done and if done and it functions well enough will improve the lives of A LOT of people.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by wang_li on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:05AM (#16062102)
You can't solve the underlying bugs because it's impossible for you to force your neighbor to make good choices and to live a net productive life. The only question that needs answering is how much of your productive output should be diverted to someone else, someone whose life choices you get no influence on, but somehow they are allowed to have influence on yours.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:25AM (#16062296)
This is the standard myth of personal irresponsibility which excuses "punishment" for failure.

The reality is that the opposite is not just possible, but encouraged - right-wing governments in the US consistently use economic policy to prevent social mobility, economic freedom, and the kind of collective social investment that generates long-term social, political, and economic benefits.

It's all about concentrating economic power among an increasingly narrow sub-group, and economically disenfranchising the rest of the population.

https://www.oecd.org/eco/Decoupling-of-wages-from-productivi...

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by spiderfarmer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:00PM (#16063939)
Well, I am forced to pay for my jobless neighbor. I also pay for the road between me and him. I also pay for the guy on the corner with mental health problems and for the cops that are patrolling the streets at night. I am more than happy to pay for everyone, because it's this system that enables to me to focus on my job.

And I voted for a system like this. Just like my parents, my neighbor, the guy on the corner and my jobless neighbor.

It's not holding anyone back in any way.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by kbutler on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:56PM (#16065627)
You're not paying for everyone - a significant chunk of the transfers you're endorsing are paid by deficit spending, so you're still signing up other people who don't get to vote to pay for what you want.

Of course there are probably government spending you disapprove of (long-term prison sentences for drugs, war on drugs, "bridge to nowhere", and military/foreign wars are likely candidates)

Everyone disapproves of some government spending, but it involves compromise between differing perspectives on what government should be doing.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by scarface74 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:40AM (#16060831)
But couldn't his money go farther if we had a more efficient health care system? Do you realize that they passed a law specifically making it illegal for the government to negotiate the price for medicine.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by spiderfarmer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:07PM (#16063999)
If you lack compassion, like him probably, it's very easy to ignore how the system that's benefitting you is screwing over an awful lot of people.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by drewbuschhorn on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:18AM (#16061631)
Maybe his neighbor would? If the culture of self reliance is so important, shouldn't people who take handouts from others be shamed and vilified? Sure seems like that's the Republican party line.

Whereas if healthcare was properly regulated, his neighbor could pay for it himself and actually be independent in his community.

I'd rather be independent among my peers and neighbors even if I have to rely on a supra entity to regulate my food quality and organize my warfighting than the other way around. We're all dependent at some level even if just to the past, no matter what "Atlas Shrugged" says.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by oreo81 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:04PM (#16065120)
>For me government is about taking care of the sick, poor and vulnerable as much as taking care of wannabe millionairs.

You're free to donate as much of your income to people in need as you want, but you need to stop thinking you should be able to make other people do the same thing. You may not like it but we have a right to our labor and freedom to spend it how we please.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by wsy on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:34AM (#16061239)
> ... europe needs more appreciation of self-reliance and entrepreneurship to enable a richer startup culture ...

A good social support system is not detrimental at all to a rich startup culture. It is financed by taxes, and as startup you only need to pay taxes on profit, so you don't bear any additional costs.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by mikeash on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:34PM (#16064816)
If done well, it will actually help startup culture. How many Americans want to start their own business but can’t afford to lose the health insurance they get with their corporate job?
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by jazzyk on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:33AM (#16062383)
This is a bit simplistic.

If you are in a high-tax state, your employees will pay a lot in taxes, and the cost is passed on to you, their employer. You will need to pay them enough to pay 40% in taxes and have some money left for living expenses.

Which may make your startup (or any business, really) uncompetitive, or even infeasible compared to low-tax countries/states.

There needs to be a cautious balance between providing social support (which I am all for) and overtaxing. For me, the most important part is the amount of tax money that actually goes to benefit the people who need it, rather than the bureaucracy.

In the US, the value we get for our taxes is VERY low.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by humanrebar on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @12:10PM (#16062747)
> Which may make your startup (or any business, really) uncompetitive, or even infeasible compared to low-tax countries/states.

Well, you could have a "unicorn or bust" strategy, chasing primarily high margin b2b and b2c products so big salaries aren't a dealbreaker.

Of course, I just described the current SV startup scene, including why things like Juicero get funded while affordable real estate development is a comparatively unattractive investment.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by lutorm on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @05:20PM (#16065838)
If you are in a high-tax state, your employees will pay a lot in taxes, and the cost is passed on to you, their employer. You will need to pay them enough to pay 40% in taxes and have some money left for living expenses.

The flip side is of course:

If you are in a low-tax state, your employees (or you) will pay a lot for things like health care and retirement, and the cost is passed on to you, their employer. You will need to pay them enough to pay those costs and have some money left for living expenses.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by bcassedy on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @06:55PM (#16066672)
Humans, in general, are not good at delayed gratification or long term planning. They don't plan for health care expenses or save enough for retirement. As a result, your employees will for the most part, happily defer those costs which means those costs don't go into the calculus for how much your employees need to get paid to do the work you need of them.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by myaso on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:26PM (#16064742)
That's the price you pay for having a big country, there are quite a few benefits you enjoy from this -- carve it up into more easily manageable jurisdictions or deal with it. A bigger fraction of your tax dollars being absorbed by the bureaucracy in the US compared to let's say Canada or Estonia isn't something that can be changed -- your Congress doesn't seem to have an appetite for trimming waste or implementing responsible oversight. How is the Great Wall of Trump doing btw? ;)
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by lutorm on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @05:21PM (#16065853)
More relevant is that a vastly larger fraction of your tax dollars go to things related to the military-industrial complex, aka "defense".
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by myaso on Saturday January 06, 2018 @06:22AM (#16084789)
Naw. Take a look at the percentage of GDP the US spent on the military -- 3.3% according to wikipedia, higher than average overall but less than average if you look at other countries that are actively using their militaries -- not necessarily correct unless the mechanics of the tax system are known but it is a vastly closer approximation than what your comment implied.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by lucideer on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:55PM (#16065021)
> europe needs more appreciation of self-reliance and entrepreneurship to enable a richer startup culture

A part of this is cultural (appreciation of self-reliance) but the other half of it (the state-/support-structure-influenced side, let's say) is surely the precise opposite of your suggestion? Countless studies have shown that support structures encourage risk-taking behaviour and entrepeneurship. Even in the US, entrepeneurship will be much more common amongst those with well-educated, supportive family backgrounds - the rags-to-riches stories are certainly highlighted as inspirational examples of the American dream but are minority cases in reality.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Florin_Andrei on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:09PM (#16065171)
Also speaking as an European immigrant who's been living in the US for nearly two decades.

Both of you are right. Americans are not more selfish than other nations, individually. Culturally they do tend to hoist self-reliance up on a high pedestal. In theory these traits should be unrelated, more or less.

However, it is a very unfortunate "feature" of the American political system that there are many, many demagogues who take things that are inherently good, virtues one could say, such as self-reliance, and weaponize them to serve the interests of some extremely selfish rich power brokers. Not every time, but in many cases when you hear the word "freedom" in the American political discourse, you might be close to an example of this pernicious distortion of basic notions.

TLDR: Americans, stop obsessing over by now empty slogans such as "freedom", start thinking more about building a society that works well for all its participants.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by bobwaycott on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:19AM (#16061642)
I think it’s more accurate to say we Americans expect/demand self-reliance than it is to say we are more appreciative of it. It doesn’t quite make sense to say we appreciate it—that’d imply we do not expect it, but notice and value it when it is present. Quite the contrary—our culture leaves very little room for appreciating, valuing, revering, looking up to, or attributing positive social accolades to anything but self-reliance.

The general rule in America is that the individual gets all the credit for the great things they do, and doesn’t have to share it with any social inputs/factors—and the individual gets all the blame when society deems them worthless, and society doesn’t have to share any of that blame.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Fnoord on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @05:37PM (#16066021)
You expect/demand self-reliance? Well, my father finished his studies and had a stable job as an engineer. Suddenly he got ill: Multiple sclerosis (MS). In the early stages he got called a fraud by his parents, people called him lazy. They didn't even know he had MS in the first place. He had tremors in his hands. He could barely walk. He could see less than 10%. He couldn't read anymore, except with special glasses. He couldn't drive anymore. (How this all affected me as a child is another discussion.) His disease slowly progressed. He eventually ended up in a wheel chair, ended up with dialysis, and the plaque in his brains made him look like Alzheimer's. According to the "American Way" [1] he should end up on the street, at the mercy of some philanthropist he'd have to know or magically meet, and if he failed to achieve that, well I guess he didn't pray hard enough? The "European Way" [1] shows mercy. I'm grateful my father lived in Europe when this all happened. The only sad part about the story, is that my father was so pro-capitalist that he voted on political figures who destroyed some bricks of the very system which supported him!

> our culture leaves very little room for appreciating, valuing, revering, looking up to, or attributing positive social accolades to anything but self-reliance.

Our societies are made up by individuals, but we are all in this together. All of us are human beings who are trying their best to succeed in life.

I believe that someone like my father made no known mistake in his life to blame him for his disease (the cause of MS is still unknown), and I have zero understanding for someone who beliefs that he, in his situation, should've ended up on the street, forcing him to be self-reliant. Like, how? He'd have died rather quickly as a blind, homeless man who cannot walk. And his example is just one of the many. I have one word for a society in the 20th/21st century who pushes people towards that path: compassion-less. And I judge a society by the way it treats its weakest links. Because that is a sign of wealth. Not United_States_Dollar-wealth, but maturity of society akin to how a parent nurtures their child. (Its not the same in this context because the child has a chance to succeed in life, but its close, and in case of temporary illnesses its accurate.)

[1] America is bigger than USA, and Europe isn't one nation either. These are caricatures of Europe and America. We're overgeneralizing, in so many ways.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by bobwaycott on Thursday January 04, 2018 @05:23PM (#16074660)
I think we are very much on the same side. I'm not suggesting what the US does is right--I'm criticizing my culture. What I wrote is, to me, inexcusable and deplorable, even as a caricature--albeit one I do not believe is overly broad or unfairly overgeneralized. We need to do much better.

When I say we expect/demand self-reliance, I mean that is the dominant cultural & historical narrative & social expectation here in the US. I do not mean I personally expect or demand that of others as a general rule--but I am expected to. A fair amount of the political division in this country often revolves around where individuals fall on the spectrum of expecting/demanding self-reliance of their fellow citizens. America doesn't care about its poor, homeless, disadvantaged, disabled, and otherwise weaker citizens. In fact, I don't think Americans typically look at such people as citizens at all--or at least not as equals. They are, instead, burdens.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by scarface74 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:37AM (#16060817)
So how much time do these same churches spend supporting policies and politicians that are actively trying to harm people?
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by reirob on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:23AM (#16062278)
> to enable a richer startup culture

Why is a richer startup culture considered something positive?

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by myaso on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:48PM (#16064952)
It's HN, it's like a mandatory one liner to toss out -- the equivalent to "that's what she said" on here. A healthy diet of HN reinforces the reality from a couple of years ago when things actually seem to look more and more barren with actual opportunities scarcer than ever. But the answer is the idea that these words represent in the heads of the people who spout them doesn't actually reflect what it means in practice.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by nolite on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:44PM (#16064363)
Counter-counterpoint from an American. It actually is selfishness. Most people and fight and vote in their own self-interest, and only take note of the welfare of others when it affects them directly. Sad, but true..
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by vilmosi on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:18PM (#16064661)
>>> But equally europe needs more appreciation of self-reliance and entrepreneurship to enable a richer startup culture and let the EU become an economic leader instead of follower

Isn't the EU the biggest economy in the world? For now at least, Brexit and all that...

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by AcerbicZero on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:29PM (#16065361)
Depends on how you measure economy size, but by most metrics the EU is a close-ish second.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by jotm on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:13PM (#16065202)
USA with a safety net like that of EU would be unstoppable. It's already sort of there business-side, now it needs the social side to work, so any individual who falls on hard times can get back on their feet fast. The EU is too risk averse.
Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by Feniks on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:56AM (#16061429)
Looking at the stats the Netherlands had a small budget SURPLUS last year and national debt is only 60% of GDP.

There are economic advantages to a high tax welfare state as well.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by refurb on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:08PM (#16064567)
Did you just cherry pick one country and make a claim that high tax welfare states have an economic advantage?

Statiticians the world over are rolling over in their graves.

Re:Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on He... by kbutler on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @05:21PM (#16065851)
One year in one country no less...