News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by tzs on Monday January 01, 2018 @01:32PM (#16047273)
Almost everything I've seen on error rates from radioactive decay and cosmic particles has been on servers in data centers.

I wonder if home systems are equally vulnerable, or if there is something about data center system design or facilities that make them more susceptible?

I ask because I had a couple of home desktop Linux boxes once, without ECC RAM, that were running as lightly loaded servers. I ran a background process on both that just allocated a big memory buffer, wrote a pattern into it, and then cycled through it verifying that the pattern was still there.

Based on the error rates I'd seen published, I expect to see a few flipped bits over the year (if I recall correctly) that I ran these, but I didn't catch a single one.

Later, I bought a 2008 Mac Pro for home, and 2009 Mac Pro for work (I didn't like the PC the office supplied), and used both of those to mid 2017. They had ECC memory, and I never saw any report when I checked memory status that they had ever actually had to correct anything.

So...what's the deal here? What do I need to do to see a bit flip from radiocative decay or cosmic rays on my own computer?

Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by asveikau on Monday January 01, 2018 @02:57PM (#16047705)
I think it's multiplication. The odds are low but the number of potential instances is larger. Data centers have larger numbers of machines and those machines are doing repeated work where you observe the result.

Personal machines are typically limited by what your senses can handle. There are few of them for starters. They idle a lot. If many pieces failed inexplicably it's not likely to be something you are personally paying attention to with your senses.

(I have personally observed ram and disk failures on personal machines anyway. And I have seen stuff in my dmesg indicating hardware faults on my personal desktops, but rarely in a way that I notice in actual use not looking at dmesg.)

Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by blattimwind on Monday January 01, 2018 @02:54PM (#16047690)
> I wonder if home systems are equally vulnerable, or if there is something about data center system design or facilities that make them more susceptible?

I was told once that today's concrete has a much higher background radiation than brick and mortar from before the 50s. There is also more steel in data centres.

However, I'm not at all sure if background radiation of building materials is even in the right order of magnitude to matter here. Probably not.

Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by mikeash on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @11:21AM (#16052782)
A bit of a tangent, but somewhat related to your bit about concrete: steel salvaged from ships built before 1945 is less radioactive than modern steel and is useful for devices that are extremely sensitive to radiation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

The reason the modern stuff is more radioactive is the massive number of atmospheric nuclear weapons tests conducted starting in 1945. I imagine the concrete has the same issue.

Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by pkaye on Monday January 01, 2018 @03:41PM (#16047925)
I think you need high energy radiation like cosmic rays from space to create problems. So those at higher elevation are at more risk. Heavy material like concrete may block this radiation.
Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by ajarmst on Monday January 01, 2018 @05:14PM (#16048335)
Alpha particle emissions are common causes of single-bit errors, especially from ceramic enclosure materials in integrated circuits. Mitigating soft errors from circuit packaging is an active area of research in materials science. Parity bits and CRC error checking are needed precisely to reduce the impact of these errors down to manageable levels.
Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by pkaye on Monday January 01, 2018 @08:54PM (#16049270)
"Alpha particles can be stopped by a sheet of paper, beta particles by aluminum, and gamma radiation by a block of lead."

This is what I read online. A typical hardware components is enclosed in a aluminum case so really gamma radiation is of concern right?

Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by krallja on Monday January 01, 2018 @09:23PM (#16049387)
GP is saying the radiation is emitted by the component package itself, i.e. the random decay of particles in the ceramic surrounding an IC can cause errors.
Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by ajarmst on Monday January 01, 2018 @09:30PM (#16049411)
Lantz, "Soft errors induced by Alpha Particles", 1996. http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/510798/?reload=true
Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by dboreham on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @12:15AM (#16050031)
It comes from within.
Re:The mysterious case of the Linux Page Table Isolation pat... by emmelaich on Monday January 01, 2018 @07:18PM (#16048876)
Concrete and brick are significant sources of radiation. Especially when new.

I don't know if the sort of radiation they give out is of much risk to computers however.