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Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by vannevar on Thursday December 28, 2017 @11:29AM (#16022999)
Income for the top 1% of the population is up over 400% over the past 30 years, while remaining largely flat for the rest of the workforce. The tech boom is well underway, it's just that only a tiny fraction of the population is capturing the vast majority of the benefits. The boom is not just about efficiencies, it's also about centralization and winner-take-all market dynamics.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by 11thEarlOfMar on Thursday December 28, 2017 @11:42AM (#16023101)
Global absolute poverty has plummeted from 40% in 1985 to less than 10% in 2015:

https://ourworldindata.org/slides/world-poverty/#/declining-...

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by yomly on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:32PM (#16023411)
I see this fact touted around a lot, often in the context of stagnating/eroding wages.

It 100% goes without saying that global poverty decreasing is cause for celebration, but eroding quality of life for a economic bracket of people should not be ignored.

If you look at both facts together however (global poverty is down, wealth has concentrated at the top) then it would suggest that the wealth of the non-wealthy has merely been redistributed. Indeed, this is intuitive if you consider the trend of moving your labour to a cheaper country.

Having travelled to many developing nations, it also (admittedly anecdotally) feels evident that most the wealth reaching developing nations is concentrating with the already wealthy / those in power.

So what it feels to me is like that local inequality is increasing while global inequality is decreasing - the rich are getting richer everywhere while the working and middle classes are slowly converging everywhere.

Unfortunately, as history has so far told, the notion that the erosion of the quality of life has led to improvements of life to someone very far away is a hard sell.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by pm90 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:41PM (#16023482)
I don't think we have seen anything like this in history before, and it will be interesting, to say the least, at how all the millions of people elevated from destitution will contribute to the world and change it.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by vannevar on Thursday December 28, 2017 @02:35PM (#16024287)
Don't get too excited. The chart only shows that fewer people fall below the $2/day line. They could all be living on $2.01/day now and it would still be valid.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by atomi on Thursday December 28, 2017 @01:39PM (#16023891)
"You can't hold the tide with a broom."
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by prostoalex on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:40PM (#16023470)
The wages are a proxy for buying power.

Starting at the bottom of the Maslow’s pyramid and moving up, do today’s wages buy less of food, shelter, water, clothing, transportation, etc. than someone receiving wages 30/50/100/200 years ago?

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by observation on Thursday December 28, 2017 @01:41PM (#16023911)
Wages really do buy less house than 100 years ago.

This would have been about 1920 when the Sears kit houses were invented.

Look at this: http://eastsidehill.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/1927...

The inflation calculator here:

32,424.83 in today's dollars for a respectable, quality 8 room house.

Sure it doesn't include land or labour but there's no way an 8 room house costs 32k today.

Today that would buy you a Tiny House on the low end of that market.

In my opinion, and I know we are far richer than our great-grandparents, but anybody arguing we're quantitatively richer than our parents has a long row to hoe. If this is progress it sure is lumpy. As Peter Thiel says the most likely explanation is we've had an nearly completely unacknowledged (by Western intelligentsia) stagnation technologically.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by gnicholas on Thursday December 28, 2017 @02:15PM (#16024150)
> Tyler Cowen points out that there's not a single thing in your list of kitchen appliances that didn't exist in the 50s. People have highly temporally displaced notions, believing that things like washing machines or dishwashers are recent mass consumer items but they're not, they're nearly a century old.

Economists know that GDP measures are skewed by the fact that “a car is not a car” — that is, a new car today is much more than a new car from 30 years ago. It is safer and more comfortable, and consumers who pay the same amount in real dollars for a new car today are better off than consumers who bought a new car in years past.

So the “house” from the Sears catalog isn’t likely comparable to a house today with the same number of rooms. For example, the size of bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchens, closets, and garages has increased greatly in the last 100 years. New homes are more energy efficient and have safer wiring. Does this close the gap with a $32k house? Not in Silicon Valley, but there are parts of the country where the house (excluding the land, which Sears didn’t include either) is worth around $50k.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by EliRivers on Thursday December 28, 2017 @03:38PM (#16024724)
For example, the size of bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchens, closets, and garages has increased greatly in the last 100 years.

Have you been to the UK recently? :)

I don't know how much of an increase there was from about a century ago, but for the last few decades it's very much been going the other way. But the UK is something of a basket case when it comes to housing; people want to spend all their money on a mortgage.

Tangentially related, not long ago a minister suggested that people could keep a "jerry can" or petrol in their garage and was roundly mocked not only for the fire hazard, but for the casual belief that everyone has a garage.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by observation on Thursday December 28, 2017 @06:26PM (#16026028)
Personally I've always felt the existence of the garage to be an underrated contribution to American innovation.

I don't mean Americans aren't aware of it, I mean that sort of thing never comes up when Europeans discuss how to increase innovation. They will produce 'e-centers' and 'hubs' but I think most of the good stuff just comes from some people screwing around, probably with some things that don't rate much fanfare or seem adequate for a proposal.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by observation on Thursday December 28, 2017 @05:48PM (#16025731)
Sorry about the edit, I thought I was waffling on too long.

My position is not that you're wrong, it's that most of us are missing the subtext of our technological development which is that nearly all of it is computer related and we've papered over failures in a large number of technological areas by simply not talking about them (in society, not on HN).

> Economists know that GDP measures are skewed by the fact that “a car is not a car” — that is, a new car today is much more than a new car from 30 years ago. It is safer and more comfortable, and consumers who pay the same amount in real dollars for a new car today are better off than consumers who bought a new car in years past.

That is true. I wouldn't dispute the affect of accumulated incremental changes to existing product lines, it's meaningful.

It's true in two directions. For instance many items today are inferior goods to past goods. Here is an example.

New growth lumber is inferior to old growth lumber. Something made out of wood such as siding, framing or window/door frames will require more frequent replacement due to rot, insects, weather. The old growth equivalents lasts for decades and even centuries. Today we rely on a mixture of more frequent maintenance and often toxic additives (protective coatings) and if that doesn't work we are forced to leap to far more complex, sometimes expensive replacements e.g. UPVC, I-Joists, LVLs.

I'm not saying the technology is bad. It's great engineering ingenuity, I'm stating its requirement exists because of a failure in our ability to match or improve qualitative tree farming and botanical biotechnology.

> So the “house” from the Sears catalog isn’t likely comparable to a house today with the same number of rooms. For example, the size of bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchens, closets, and garages has increased greatly in the last 100 years. New homes are more energy efficient and have safer wiring. Does this close the gap with a $32k house? Not in Silicon Valley, but there are parts of the country where the house (excluding the land, which Sears didn’t include either) is worth around $50k.

This is a big subject, I'll just throw one dart at you.

There is a hidden assumption. Why are your houses more energy efficient? It's because a barrel of oil doesn't cost $1 anymore.

There's a dark side to energy efficiency.

The side affects of higher insulation requirements is that houses cost more, studies on passive houses suggest 10%-20% more in the positive scenarios. The real problem though is that the most common forms of insulation offgas toxins and since houses are meant to be more air tight... The fact is that most buyers of houses and most builders of them aren't up to speed on what is required to do this sort of housing without health risks.

Right now most houses in my country, without the latest insulation requirements, suffer from moisture, mildew and mold problems, all of which is not positive for human health - this only gets worse with the new regulations because consumers don't understand the importance of hvac or building houses as holistic systems.

Most of my complaints seem to go away if we actually had a real biotech revolution.

When DNA was discovered, when Human Genome was decoded, they said the exact same things they are now saying about CRISPR, that's what troubles me.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by gnicholas on Thursday December 28, 2017 @07:06PM (#16026313)
> * New growth lumber is inferior to old growth lumber *

I totally agree that many products are not "made to last" anymore. A fancy blender can do amazing things compared to an old one. But it will probably not last as long, and that's a problem.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by observation on Friday December 29, 2017 @07:21PM (#16032984)
The solution I have found is crowd sourced or expert recommendations from the following sources:

Kevin Kelly's Cool Tools book and website. Metafilter Reddit's Buy It For Life subreddit Finehomebuilding's Tool Guide

I find I buy less stuff, but of much higher quality or utility in this way. Some times I get something at a cheap price which works really well, like my Kiwi knives. Other times I have to be educated into realizing why something costs what it does and why or why not it's worth the money. Usually the answer is that the price is right because the object lasts much longer than the cheapo alternative or that the cheap version has a health drawback.

Recent Examples:

Merkur Safety Razor vs cartridge disposables ($$$) (factor of 100 decrease in cost!) Cast iron skillets vs Teflon pans ($$$) Tempered glass (container/bakeware) vs disposable trays/soon-to-be-cracked stoneware. ($$$) Induction cooking vs Gas (health) Expensive meat vs cheap meat. (health) Glycerin soap vs liquid soap/regular soap ($$$)

Here's a clear example. I buy a hard shave soap in a nice wooden bowl that costs $30. That's way more than a can of foam, but I've been using this for over four years now and it's only half used.

I don't do this with everything. I have a Silvercrest blender that has worked for a year, expected lifespan of three years I think, about $30 but buying a Vitamix or Blendtec at $500+ wouldn't 'pay me back' in a lifetime.

[waffle]

The China market isn't a problem if and only if it is understood by the consumer that they're getting disposables, so they should stock up and throw away more frequently. That requires money and space a lot of people do not have.

China production is immensely valuable for the bottom billions of the world who simply cannot plausibly afford West levels of wealth.

The rub is of course that you and I are getting lots of boxes with broken appliances/tools.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by collinmanderson on Thursday December 28, 2017 @07:48PM (#16026542)
Modular houses can cost as low as $50/sqft. This Sears house looks like 900-1200 sqft, so 45k to 60k.

http://modularhomeowners.com/how-much-will-my-modular-home-c... https://blog.capterra.com/the-pros-cons-and-cost-of-modular-...

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by observation on Friday December 29, 2017 @07:58PM (#16033120)
Yes, but can you build the Sears house for 35k today without materials substitutions. I don't think you can, prices of commodities were probably lower then, which is not in line with received wisdom.

The reason why I mentioned a Tiny House or THOW is that the comparison is much closer, I think like most countries in the past there were no planning permission or taxes on house building. A THOW too is built by the owner, but it is 200-300 sq ft and not 1200 sq ft.

The website you listed suggests a 50k modular house costs closer to 130k to install once everything is worked through. Do you believe the Sears house cost ~150-200% more in the end? Sure they had to dig wells too but I don't think that is plausible.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by maxerickson on Friday December 29, 2017 @08:25PM (#16033217)
Archive.org has a mediocre scan of the bill of materials for one of them:

https://archive.org/details/SpecificationsAndBillOfMaterials...

It seems like there should be a collection of historical lumber prices somewhere. Just that comparison will be pretty informative about the relative material costs.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by PatchMonkey on Friday December 29, 2017 @04:09AM (#16028509)
Meanwhile, when poverty numbers are both a mark of shame for a country and fail to keep pace with the inflation of either consumer goods or housing?

We have a growing population of homeless folks too "rich" for public assistance. A lot of them already have jobs: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/nyregion/in-new-york-h... And it has only gotten worse since that was published.

The Hoovervilles that showed up before the great depression are back: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/america-home...

Dude, you have to either be drowning in kids or make nothing to fall under the official poverty line. But what catches people's eyes is the rise of those officially falling below that line. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/15/america-extr...

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by vannevar on Thursday December 28, 2017 @02:20PM (#16024186)
Great news, for sure. But was that a result of the tech boom, or government policies? I'm betting on the latter. And the fact that the lowest rungs of the economic ladder aren't fixed in an absolute sense doesn't change the fact that an increasingly enormous share of the wealth produced by humanity globally is going to just 1% of the population.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by jressey on Thursday December 28, 2017 @03:35PM (#16024705)
What is your assertion? Let me help: "The accumulation of wealth amongst the top % is cool because the ratio of absolute poverty has decreased."

I mean, that's awesome. The problem is just about everybody else is moving downwards.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by QAPereo on Thursday December 28, 2017 @01:29PM (#16023815)
When it gets down to it — talking trade balances here — once we've brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out... once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant... once the Invisible Hand has taken away all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity...
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by decebalus1 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:13PM (#16023285)
I'm waiting for the common folks to start hoarding money too and decrease consumption. Ford figured this problem out at the start of the 20th century but apparently everyone forgot about it (if my employees aren't well off enough to buy my product, I'm screwed).

I personally believe that what we're going through right now isn't going to scale and it will collapse. It's probably one of the very few times in agree with Ron Paul: https://www.inquisitr.com/4704540/ron-paul-we-are-on-the-ver...

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by prostoalex on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:46PM (#16023517)
Ford’s assembly line required higher investment in worker training, so churn was more expensive for Ford than other autoworkers. Ford employees did not represent a major buying market for the company and did not own vehicles in higher proportion when compared to the rest of the population.

If we decide that we want to encourage companies whose final products workers can afford and discourage companes whose final products are unaffordable, we desperately need more manufacturers of pencils, plastic bags or napkins (single month’s salary buys one a lifetime supply) and need fewer companies like Boeing or SpaceX (even after a 100 year career the workers cannot afford the final product).

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by existencebox on Thursday December 28, 2017 @03:25PM (#16024644)
Although this wasn't your primary statement, wanted to take a bite out of your second clause about "encouraging cheaper product companies" as this is a point close to my heart as a regular advocate for consumer demand driven economics.

Boeing or Spacex's product demand is driven directly by transitive demand for an affordable product; air travel and to give one "space" example; gps, are both "consumer tier" products that facilitate a whole vertical of production. I'm hard pressed to think of a single super-expensive item that doesn't in some way link back to consumer demand; outside of additional injections via nations. To me this seems intuitive; as I'm hard pressed to think of another driver of production with comparable volume, and as such don't see any reason increasing that source of demand would bias "cheap" products any more than they are now.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by monksy on Thursday December 28, 2017 @01:21PM (#16023762)
I get the feeling that we're (the US) in a few bad ruts right now:

1. We have identity-based policies in place. People are attempting to blacklist others based on where they stand on politics/etc (non-money based discrimination). I've seeing this in the tech industry where the most passive-aggressive individuals succeed. (i.e. Tests we don't need them)

2. We're seeing lots of profit grabs and they're being ignored due to PR reasons. (I.e. Silicon Valley and workers rights.. oh wait, nevermind this startup isn't bad because they're "diverse")

3. Inflation, we're seeing a lot of inflation of prices, and decrease in value. (Go overseas to see how bad this is) Even Germany with a 20% vat on products is a cheaper COL.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by xandar11 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @01:35PM (#16023860)
When will people stop with that Henry Ford myth? You don't have to pay employees a high wage so they can afford to buy things that are produced.

You hear it when automation is mentioned: "Businesses are constantly automating production, so who is going to buy the output?". The answer is that other robot owners can buy it or the producer himself can consume it. The type of goods produced changes. Instead of cheap cars or pillows, you have more yachts, boats and other luxury items.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by tomjen3 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:38PM (#16023458)
Ford famously raised the wages he offered, resulting in much better employees; however the only way he could make it so that his employees could afford to buy his cars was to make the cars affordable for the average family, since if he raised the wages to a level that meant they could afford his cars, he would only sell to his own employees and then he would have made no profit.

I won't comment on your assertion, except to say that Marx predicted the same, and yet it hasen't happened yet.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by decebalus1 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:41PM (#16023475)
Haven't read Marx.. I guess the speculations are going full-circle. Hopefully only the speculations.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by maxxxxx on Thursday December 28, 2017 @11:44AM (#16023115)
The money will soon start to trickle down from the top 1% especially with the latest tax cuts. Be patient just a little more.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by saas_co_de on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:44PM (#16023497)
Money does trickle down but what it trickles down onto is a determining factor in economic growth.

When rich people put their money into employing people for non-productive servant type jobs, welfare for people (to not work), loans for people to go to college (to not work, at least in the short term), hand outs for their children and family members (to not work) then the end result is a lot of people not working and a lot fewer things being produced by the people who do work.

If a rich person buys a yacht or a private plane or a hundred million dollar mansion, that creates economic activity (people have to build that stuff) but it does not have the same secondary economic impact as investing that money into a factory, basic infrastructure, R&D, or some other productive use.

Money is trickling down, but far too much of it seems to be trickling down to a non-productive servant class and non-productive veblen goods.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by DougWebb on Thursday December 28, 2017 @11:48AM (#16023142)
Sarcastic, or do you have some reason to believe that'll actually happen this time?
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by pm90 on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:43PM (#16023492)
It will NOT happen. It has never happened that way, and there is nothing especially unique or different about the economy today that would make it happen.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by maxxxxx on Thursday December 28, 2017 @06:46PM (#16026189)
I could say if this tax cut doesn't help we'll just do another and then paradise for all starts. But that would be too sarcastic.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Thursday December 28, 2017 @11:56AM (#16023189)
Comrade maxxx is secretly hoping you don't want to be patient.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by maxxxxx on Thursday December 28, 2017 @02:06PM (#16024089)
I think I need to clarify that I was sarcastic. Nothing will trickle down.
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by at-fates-hands on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:00PM (#16023210)
There were 500,000 new millionaires in the US alone in 2015:

The study, from market research and consulting firm Spectrem Group, found that there are now 10.1 million households in the U.S. with $1 million or more in investable assets, excluding the value of their primary residence.

That's up from about 9.6 million in 2013, and tops the prerecession peak of 9.2 million in 2007. It's the highest number since Spectrem began tracking the data in 1997.

If we cranking out half a million new millionaires a year, it should be sign more people are working to get into the top 1%, and the economy is still offering a ton of opportunity if you want to get out there and give it a go.

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by drdrey on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:04PM (#16023239)
> more people are working to get into the top 1%

I don't think that's how the top 1% works

Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by idrios on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:14PM (#16023297)
He's not wrong. In 2010 there were 6.93 billion people in the world. In 2015 there were 7.35 billion. By that calculation, 4.2 million people moved into the top 1% in the span of just 5 years!
Re:A Tech-Driven Boom Is Coming; Please Be Patient by lostlogin on Thursday December 28, 2017 @12:08PM (#16023258)
I hope that’s inflation adjusted. A 1997 millionaire was an awful lot wealthier than a 2017 millionaire. It will be something around 50% inflation. If someone is a millionaire now that can simply mean they live in a moderate sized city and own their house, there are no Scrooge McDuck cash piles.