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Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by d33 on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @07:03AM (#16014272)
I was on the talk and I found it boring at best. What did you like about it?
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by louithethrid on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @07:14AM (#16014304)
Treating cooperations like paper-clip optimizers who try to hack ones brain sounds very reasonable.
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by sillysaurus3 on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @07:35AM (#16014394)
Is there an alternative?

Corporations were invented. Could we invent something better?

Or is it just human nature to devolve into the current state of affairs?

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by beefield on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @08:27AM (#16014610)
> Could we invent something better?

How about making just a small tweak to the limited liability corporation legislation/rules? Currently the main purpose of a corporation is to maximize the (long term) shareholder value. What if the purpose was to maximize the long term goods sold, taxes paid or salaries paid instead? Note that you would still need to pay a decent return to shareholders in order to maximize these other things, just like currently you need (usually) to sell goods, pay a salary and pay your taxes to maximize the shareholder value.

(This may sound like a joke, but I am actually serious. Nobody has been able to justify so that I would have understood why it is the common stock holders whose value a corporation maximizes instead of other stakeholders. After all, the original reason limited liability was invented was to enable projects that bring good for the society, but are so damn risky that nobody is willing to take the full liability.)

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by xyzzyz on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @09:00AM (#16014764)
Note that you would still need to pay a decent return to shareholders in order to maximize these other things, just like currently you need (usually) to sell goods, pay a salary and pay your taxes to maximize the shareholder value.

No, you would still need to grow to a large company with lots of revenue, but if the metric to optimize is salaries paid, then paying shareholders anything at all is in direct conflict with paying salaries to workers. The problem here is designing set of incentives that would encourage appropriate results, and the difficulty is that not all incentives work equally well, or even at all.

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by beefield on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @09:04AM (#16014785)
> paying shareholders anything at all is in direct conflict with paying salaries to workers

Paying workers anything at all is in direct conflict with generating shareholder value.

Key is "long term". If you want to maximize long term salaries, you must pay a decent return to equity.

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by xyzzyz on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @09:31AM (#16014924)
No, the difference is that you need to pay salaries in order for company to continue operating. If you don't, the employees will just quit.

On the other hand, there's absolutely no need to pay anything to shareholders for a company to operate, other than legal obligation. Shareholders going on strike makes absolutely no difference for the company.

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by beefield on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:29AM (#16015268)
> you need to pay salaries in order for company to continue operating. If you don't, the employees will just quit.

you need to get funding in order for company to continue operating. If you don't pay a decent return for the funding, you just won't get funded.

> Shareholders going on strike makes absolutely no difference for the company.

This applies only to companies that do not require capital to operate/grow.

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by xyzzyz on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @12:40PM (#16016405)
No, you only pay the returns after you got funded. Except of contract enforcement in court, the investors have absolutely no way to force the company to pay up. That's what I meant by "legal obligations".

Of course, if you get yourself a reputation of not returning money to investors, you'll unlikely to get funded the next time, and if the investors have no way to force the company to pay dividends, they will fund few companies in the first place. The point is, maximizing salaries paid is a terrible metric, precisely because of bad incentives it creates.

> This applies only to companies that do not require capital to operate/grow.

But when they require capital to grow, you aren't returning the money to investors anyway -- what would be the point of that? The investors only expect the dividends once the capital needs of the company are satisfied, and once that happens, the company no longer needs the investors.

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by mooneater on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @09:59AM (#16015063)
Promise of investor returns is what gets the company off the ground. Remove that and how do you get early investment?
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by hamilyon2 on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @10:09AM (#16015113)
Technically, you can tie dividends to, say 5% of salaries and make that unchangable clause in company rules. So, legal obligation, yes.
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by walshemj on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @01:54PM (#16016972)
And how would you make a "unchangeable" rule companies can change the rules at a duly constituted meeting normally the AGM.
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @11:17AM (#16015603)
Well, except that shareholders are the ones who decide what to pay themselves, because it's their company?
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by xyzzyz on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @12:42PM (#16016418)
Not necessarily -- the board decides that. Shareholders don't have anything directly to say as to how exactly company is operated, and for good reason -- if they did, they could be held liable for the company actions.
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by pdkl95 on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @09:22AM (#16014860)
How about limiting maximum number of people in any corporation to ~80%[3] of the Dunbar Number[2][3]?

It wouldn't fix everything, but it would guarantee more competition and hopefully keep corporations comprehensible.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

[2] Vsauce2 has a good introduction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2qjRG6iV8M

[3] Why 80%? To allow room for family/etc. This number is merely a suggestion; better values require actual research.

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by louithethrid on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @07:41AM (#16014418)
There could be a automatic break up mechanism after ten years.
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @07:48AM (#16014448)
> There could be a automatic break up mechanism after ten years

What do you do with the assets? Liquidate them? If so, you’ll just periodically kick out minority shareholders (or promote consolidation).

Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by ginko on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @07:16AM (#16014311)
I found the corporation/AI comparison rather insightful.
Re:34th Chaos Communication Congress Live Streams by tqdm on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @08:27AM (#16014612)
Both are basically optimization processes that yield considerable risk and that are tricky to regulate, but in case of cooperations you still have the human element: vulnerability/fallibility, social reputation/integration, slowness/interpretability, empathy. The best policies to mitigating the respective risks probably are quite different.