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Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by hackits on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:31PM (#15975271)
I think you've nailed it on the head but haven't realized why you've nailed it on the head.

`Why? These things have real consequences.`

To a business they see software/engineers as a expense. The whole focus as a business is to provide a service that people are will to pay more than it costs to provide said service.

Everything else doesn't matter, what does matter for a business is $$$$$ and making sure business doesn't get sued because bill touched jill with his #####.

For what my words are worth, I do think you need to take a step back and view it from a Business person perspective and attempt to align your goals with theirs. Get out of your cube and go and meet CEO's and CIO and talk to them about their problems and what their goals are. Then see if you two can work together to achieve their goals and bring value to the table.

Even writing this I've could think of 10 or 20 different business discussions you could have.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by leggomylibro on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:15PM (#15975524)
>To a business they see software/engineers as a expense.

Anecdotally, this is one of the first things I try to gauge at a prospective employer. "Are their development teams seen as cost centers, or profit centers?" If the company works with technology a lot and doesn't see technology as being particularly important to its bottom line, that's usually a bad sign.

Also, discussions with C-levels tend to be pretty one-dimensional. It doesn't matter how much their infrastructure is falling apart, they'll still stonewall with something along the lines of, "our goal this quarter is new user acquisition - how does this improve those numbers?"

And they won't accept, "users cannot sign up if everything is broken" as an answer.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by hackits on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:31PM (#15975608)
You're 100% right but also 100% wrong.

Like I said before you're viewing it from the perspective of a developer but not from the perspective of a Business person.

Instead of saying `Users cannot sing up if everything is broken` you need to see it from a Business perspective, and communicate it to them in the language they understand.

For example, `From our quarterly earnings report we need to have 10,0000 new clients signed up by the end of the month to reach the goal. We have on average 2,000 sign-ups per day. On the 2nd, 3rd of last month two of the critical system's fell over, and this result in a estimated 4,000 failed client acquisitions. The estimate from our quarterly earnings each new customer bring's in a revenue of $300 net profit from each client for the quarter. As a result of the system crash our quarterly earnings will be down 1.2 Million.`

Your job is to communicate clearly in the language they understand how it will achieve their goals. You're not the only department/manager who is requiring resources from the Business. As I stated before you're there to serve the business to achieve their goals.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by jdmichal on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:36PM (#15976219)
Honestly, this is pretty straight-forward stuff, and I'm surprised you're getting any argument. If a technologist cannot explain how a proposed implementation is going to provide value to the business, that project is probably better off left alone. Prettier code and better tests don't provide value. But fewer customer-facing P1/P2 tickets provides value. That prettier code and better tests leads to fewer tickets is an implementation detail.

Let's put it this way: Netflix has one of the most robust microservice architectures I know of. I promise you will find zero mention of it anywhere on their customer-facing pages. Because that is not the problem that Netflix solves for their customer; they solve a media library and streaming problem.

The business is your customer. You need to understand their problems and how you're going to fix them. Everything else is an implementation detail.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday December 21, 2017 @09:55AM (#15979102)
>Honestly, this is pretty straight-forward stuff, and I'm surprised you're getting any argument.

I'm not. Our industry is full of academics who've been told "this is the right way to do it, everything else is stupid" for the entirety of their education. They're academics, trained by other academics, ignoring the broader reality of why we do these things at all.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by tfigment on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:54PM (#15975704)
The corollary here that it is perfectly acceptable for business users to not understand significant parts of their own business operations. In fact, everybody should work around your shortcomings in understanding that "technical" stuff. As the guy with the MBA, you are the most important person in the room and everybody else is there to serve you.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by DamnYuppie on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:14PM (#15976116)
You are a team. Not everyone has the same background and experiences. You would be amazed at how many people in an organization have incredible knowledge of their business domain and little to no knowledge of IT systems, their costs, and benefits. As an IT leader it is your responsibility to help bridge that gap, and the language of business is business not tech jargon, so I would caution against dismissing it.

Another way to think of it is as of user acquisition problem. You have to highlight the benefits in a way that is compelling to them. At the end of a day all progress/fiascos in a company comes down to consistent and effective communication.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by lotyrin on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:11PM (#15975790)
Still doesn't work. I've done clandestine work over weekends to speed up an application, then as part of shipping it also add a split test with half the audience having a delay similar to what was in place before I fixed the problem and brought that to the table with the "business" guys, and everyone nodded their head "wow" but every sprint after that was just full of new features.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by user5994461 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:40PM (#15975954)
I hope you got the lesson. Please stop working over the week ends for free.

You are devaluing yourself and you are devaluing all the developers who don't want to ruin their week end at work.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by lotyrin on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:33PM (#15976456)
I obviously didn't bring to the demonstration that I had volunteered the time, it suited my point to make it seem like it was something easy I could do as an aside... Problem is, they don't care about $ either, they care about what makes them look good, what makes their boss look good, what the sales guys are bugging them about, and it's features and visual polish and never quality or performance.

I had to break it down to one of them "Listen, we've seen that the site being faster gets us X% more conversions, if the site was down, or if the site was ugly X% of the time and cost us those conversions, you'd be breathing down my neck to fix it, why is this any different...?" reply after a few seconds of thought "You're right, but you'll never convince Leadership"

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by yetanother1980 on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:05AM (#15976582)
> it suited my point to make it seem like it was something easy I could do as an aside...

Thus fuelling the idea that this sort of thing will just be done as other work is happening with no time budgeted for it.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by watwut on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:53AM (#15976953)
> I've done clandestine work over weekends to speed up an application

> I obviously didn't bring to the demonstration that I had volunteered the time, it suited my point to make it seem like it was something easy I could do as an aside

I understand the impulse, but in long term this leads to inflated estimates from management - and tech side has only themselves to blame. When we pretend things take shorter then they really do, dont be surprised when they learn to expect our lie to become truth.

Long term here can be as short as three months.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by itronitron on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:14AM (#15976826)
There is an old Google paper where they talk about discovering that users returned more often if the search results list was 10 instead of 20, since the shorter list took marginally less time to load/render for the user. If your co-workers don't believe you then I am sure they would at least love the Google finding that minor performance improvements have a positive impact. They would then support improving performance in the app and brag about how much like Google they are.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by user5994461 on Thursday December 21, 2017 @12:06PM (#15980582)
>>> There is an old Google paper

No, there isn't.

Google is showing one series of ads per page. The study showed that having more legitimate results per page decreased their revenues. Of course, it gives less room for ads and less page views.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by hackits on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:27AM (#15976860)
I saw your post but didn't reply.

The work you did probably is great and do I think its above your average developer. Somewhere in the the top 10%. Though how you conducted yourself in the face of management was down right petty/folly.

Yes you did the best job in the world. You improved the performance of the serves by % and it did make management of those server's easier. Though you need to think about what you've done in the eyes of management.

Firstly you've modified the server's without permission. You've run tests out-side of work hours that could of impacted the business bottom line. For all I know (its up for debate) but your senior managers had more pressing issues on the table, and having a young code money running around outside office hours is the LAST thing they want to hear.

`It's not a simple as you may think it is.`

Some of the things that come to mind, and honestly I would of pulled you into a office to explain yourself if you're on my team.

1) Did you document all the changes you've made to the server

2) Did you back-up or store any sensitive information off-site during out of office hours

3) Did you modify critical system files that could cause another dependent system to fail

4) What ETA/Service level agreements if any did you break when bringing down the server for maintenance?

5) Did we lose any Security Certification with you modifying the server or changing any of the certificates on the server?

We're software developer, and yes when we see problem's we want to fix it to our best of our ability. Though when you're in a Business there are many thing you may not be aware of. In this situation I would honestly say you're lucky to keep your job! I hope you take it into consideration next time you want to go out-side of your duties.

I don't want to come down harsh on you, but there are times when you see a bad situation and there is nothing you can do about it. You notify the people who're higher than you of the situation and the dangers. It's then up to them to make the decision. After they've made the decision that is it. If the server blows up during the weekend, and they want you to come in and fix it (even when its there fuckup) you just take your hourly rate and x10. So if your hourly rate is $50hr and the server blows up, then your new rate is going to be $500 per hour to come in during the weekend to fix the mess.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by lemmings19 on Thursday December 21, 2017 @04:22AM (#15977500)
I have a counter-perspective to provide:

Many of the points you've raised are moot outside of large corporate environments and projects.

It is likely that the commenter has root access to all of the things you mention and touches them on a daily basis. It is likely that they are not inundated with all of the heavy process you're bringing up. It is likely that all of the security concerns you raise are not even part of their current business. Working outside of set business hours is likely not a concern; overtime is likely uncompensated anyway and there probably aren't considerable office security protocols (they probably have keys and an access code for the whole office).

The points you've raised do not apply to most small development teams.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by mratzloff on Thursday December 21, 2017 @06:32AM (#15978030)
Yes, but both of these viewpoints are important, depending on the context.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by lotyrin on Thursday December 21, 2017 @11:56AM (#15980466)
It was a simple performance bug (think N+1 query type) that was trivial to implement and trivial to be confident about its behavior vs the pathological implementation, and I used the normal channels for shipping it, it passed QA.

The only "clandestine" part is that I added the split test, and did some work outside of the set of features that was scheduled.

We had no policies around SLA, developing off-site, security or restricting sensitive information (think potential FERPA/HIPPA violation) which are yet other "non-features" that I tried to get them to adopt.

I implemented this entirely above-board, with more precautions and consideration than were taken by other developers on that team for the day-to-day.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by jjoonathan on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:07PM (#15976079)
Agreed, but don't take this as "don't work hard," merely as "don't donate time to your employer." There are far more worthy causes out there.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by oceanghost on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:07PM (#15976081)
The core conflict is this:

The engineer is trying to optimize/normalize his free time by acknowledging quality issues, the management is trying to optimize their income by sweeping them under the rug.

The engineer is ultimately liable for the problem. Quality is insured with his reputation and free time.

The business guys almost always leave at 4:00pm and their bonuses are based on a metric not related to quality.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by flukus on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:28PM (#15975873)
So we just have to do their job as well as our job?
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by jimbokun on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:13PM (#15976109)
Making money for the company is every employee’s job.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by flukus on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:47PM (#15976511)
So the janitor should analyse and quantify what difference he will make to the companies bottom line before he wipes those skidmarks off?

Not everything is quantifiable like that. If I'm writing code and I take the time to make it 30% faster then it won't make a difference to our bottom line. If that's done everywhere then customers will like us more, be more likely to stay with us and be more likely to recommend us, but that can't be quantified in my day to day work.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by webmaven on Saturday December 23, 2017 @11:00AM (#15994658)
Probably the biggest change looming over our industry is coding to - and deployment on - platforms that definitely are instrumented to capture exactly how much value a developer is adding (or subtracting) from the bottom line with every commit (it's a natural outgrowth of Function As A Service architectures).

It is already possible to more-or-less show how a code change (bug/fix, new feature, change in storage backend, etc.) directly affects your IAAS bill at the end of each month, and taking it a step further by tying in some instrumentation and formulas (of the sort often used to calculate the effectiveness of marketing funnels for optimization and A/B testing) to show the concomittant effect on revenue allows ROI to be calculated.

So, I am pretty sure that Finance-Oriented Programming is going to be a thing not so many years from now, tied into the whole toolchain, and very few - not developers nor their managers - seem prepared for that sea-change (some Operations folks are probably a bit better off in terms of mindset and processes).

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by dreamfactored on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @09:30PM (#15975894)
>"Are their development teams seen as cost centers, or profit centers?"

It's not a matter of opinion, but what the term means. They are cost centers unless they are closing sales (or being billed for about 3x what they cost, which is still way less than sales people will generate, being closer to 10x+ cost).

Best thing any employee can do is find out how their company actually makes money and understand how they align. Unfortunately, the highest business expense is salaries and one of the most important things for most businesses is remaining runway. So there is huge pressure to keep salaries down, particularly in cost centres, which aren't directly extending runway. If it's a service business it can get worse, as the money is typically made on billable hours - creating a perverse incentive to have cheaper and less efficient people to bill out rather than a 10xer (outside a senior business facing role). As long as they are capable and not so bad that they lose the client, it's often more efficient to have cheaper mediocre people from a business point of view.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by marcosdumay on Thursday December 21, 2017 @03:44PM (#15982568)
> one of the most important things for most businesses is remaining runway

Remaining runway is a measure that only exist for companies in the red. For most business it doesn't even exist.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by dreamfactored on Thursday December 21, 2017 @05:56PM (#15983656)
How long you can continue operations if sales drops off a cliff is a very important number for every company I've worked at, from startups to big multinationals. Maybe it's less of a consideration for Amazon and Apple but I wouldn't even bet on it there.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by scrpn on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:18PM (#15981341)
How can a software developer fight against this salary limitation?
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by dreamfactored on Thursday December 21, 2017 @06:01PM (#15983690)
Become a highly sought after specialist for a product offering (e.g. self-driving cars, blockchain, fintech), or get ownership (startup), or go customer facing (particularly if commission involved), or go into technical management on CTO route.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by jacquesm on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:57PM (#15976558)
The better question to ask in my opinion is whether or not they activate their IP on the balance sheet. If they do there is a very good chance that they care about the quality. If they don't then there is a very good chance they treat software as something disposable.
Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by tarsinge on Thursday December 21, 2017 @02:30AM (#15977094)
Yet my experience is that the issue comes from engineering a lot of times: fixing bugs is not fun, let’s rewrite everything because this time we learned from our errors, or just to use the new shiny framework. A buggy legacy code base that no one wants to touch or improve, and V2/New projects that of course completely fail to deliver in the end and the cycle repeats. Being in a customer team I try everyday to make Engineering care about non technical end users. My team and business might be responsible for some feature creep, but bad code quality comes from engineering practices.

Edit: to be more clear the discussion usually goes like this:

- Me: “where are we on fixing this bug? it’s been two years and customers are still complaining”

- Engineering: “we can’t touch at this component it’s a mess but we are rewriting it, this bug will no longer exists and it’ll be so much powerful, just wait a few month”

We all know how it ends. And when business pressure comes because it failed to deliver it’s all “business is evil we need more time to do great software!”

What we really need is senior and experienced engineers IMHO

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by ryanmarsh on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:21AM (#15976850)
> Get out of your cube and go and meet CEO's and CIO and talk to them about their problems and what their goals are.

Jesus Christ listen to yourself. You don’t know anything about me or how I approach things with my clients.

I care about how code affects humans but business don’t have to be responsible for how they hurt people with it.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by doktrin on Thursday December 21, 2017 @05:17AM (#15977720)
> Get out of your cube and go and meet CEO's and CIO and talk to them about their problems and what their goals are.

Implied in this statement is that the parent has a myopic perspective on the business world. Based on my read of his comment, I don't think that's fair - and moreover would question whether or not your perspective is as unique as you apparently think it is.

In other words, I think you're patting yourself on the back a little much for figuring out how to chew before swallowing.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by outworlder on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:44AM (#15976922)
> Get out of your cube and go and meet CEO's and CIO

Oh right.

Good luck even ATTEMPTING to arrange a meeting with a Fortune company's CEO. "Who from what department again?". Worse yet if it not even your company's CEO.

Maybe, if you are lucky, you can get to skip a level or too. Software engineers are usually very far removed from the top leadership.

Re:Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older W... by ryanmarsh on Thursday December 21, 2017 @02:12AM (#15977015)
I routinely talk to CIO’s. They’re often the ones who hire me.