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Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by Bartweiss on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:22AM (#15970280)
Yes, yes I am.

For years, my two biggest spheres of advocacy have been environmentalism and privacy/anti-surveillance.

What I've noticed, with that background, is that privacy activism has steadily become more like environmental activism.

With rare exceptions (e.g. the ozone layer), environmentalism is an endless, grinding rear-guard action. Extinct species do not become unextinct. Destroyed habitats do not recover, at least not within hundreds of years. Draining the Glen Canyon Dam will not restore Glen Canyon; Church Rock will never be remediated. And the threats are endless and everywhere: 4,500 species are critically endangered right now, global warming is set for 3+ degrees Celsius, the Great Barrier Reef might die entirely.

Attacks on privacy aren't new, but they seem have changed. The Clipper Chip was a central, recognizable enemy, promoted by branches of the government citizens can relate to. 24 hour turnaround on surveillance legalization for intelligence agencies is part of a new and horrible political landscape. SOPA and PIPA were indirect attacks, part of a state-corporate partnership that lets each party do the things the other is barred from. And even those were too central and easy to oppose - now they're coming back piecemeal, in budget bills and trade agreements where they're harder to address.

And as with the environment, what's lost is lost. Repealing surveillance laws is rare and unsustainable. Fighting surveillance in open courts is impossible; fighting it in FISA courts is a Kafkaesque nightmare of secret evidence and lack of standing. Corporate data-gathering is unprovable, and user information breaches are irreversible. Stolen identities can't be changed or recaptured.

So yes: I'm tired. I'm tired, and it's not an accident, because we're on the wrong end of an asymmetric fight.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by mattmanser on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:12AM (#15970815)
And depressingly it won't rollback until tyrannical governments get in power and run amok.

The sheer damage politicians across the world are inflicting on future generations with these privacy laws are very depressing.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by mLuby on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:23AM (#15970934)
But it's to prevent attacks in the short-term. If passing these laws were more immediately damaging than an actual attack (ie moving long-term consequences up) they might stop doing this.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by whatshisface on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:15AM (#15970853)
Maybe we'll end up with a new political subculture that derives pride and some sense of personal identity from fighting this stuff; just like gun people almost enjoy supporting the NRA. (In some way I think computer rights would be a lot more fun to support if a large fraction of the public was against it, then we would have the satisfaction of arguing.)
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by spenczar5 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:44PM (#15971863)
I think that already exists. The political subculture is "privacy nut" computer nerds who wear EFF shirts. There just aren't that many of them.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by snerbles on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:13PM (#15971505)
To be fair, a large fraction of the public does subscribe to the notion of "I have nothing to hide, so mass surveillance is OK".
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by eigenstuff on Thursday December 21, 2017 @11:21AM (#15980025)
A large fraction of the gun community actually HATES the NRA for exactly the same reasons everybody else does. There's just no highly visible organizations for gun owners that, y'know, promote reasonable gun control and don't try and whip their members into wannabe race war frenzies.

Source: sitting in the gunsmith shop I work in right now

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by sethgecko on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:14AM (#15970847)
Kinda off-topic but

  4,500 species are critically endangered right now
Based on the fact that more than 99.9% of all the species are now extinct, how is this an alarming sign? It seems like a part of the natural evolutionary process.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by uiberto on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:51AM (#15971236)
You may find this pair of articles interesting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/we-dont-need-to-save-...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2017/12/15/53e6147c-...

Species do go extinct, but not at the rate we are experiencing today. Even if the current rate of species loss was equal to the historical rate, that does not mean that humans wish to live in such a natural state of chaos. Did American culture lose some of its heritage with the near-extinction of the buffalo? Is it any less of a failure of humankind to drive polar bears to extinction than it would be to obliterate the complete works of Jack London from the face of the Earth? That shit is cool, and we should try to preserve it for future generations.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by akvadrako on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @06:06PM (#15974706)
I think species have died at such rates before, during earlier mass extinction events. It's natural they happen once in a while.

If we always preserve what we have, there will be no room for something new to develop.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by gleenn on Thursday December 21, 2017 @01:16AM (#15976835)
You realize we're not in a massive extinction event now right? You're comparing things like giant meteors killing all the dinosaurs to right now? If you can see the sun, we shouldn't have all these animals dying.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by dragonwriter on Thursday December 21, 2017 @02:19AM (#15977042)
> You realize we're not in a massive extinction event now right?

We are, in fact, in a mass extinction event right now, with extinction rates estimated at 1-2 orders of magnitude greater than any previous such event.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

> If you can see the sun, we shouldn't have all these animals dying.

Not all previous mass extinctions have involved the sun be blotted out by impact or volcanic events, though several have.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by jacobolus on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:25PM (#15975574)
Sure. A mass extinction event which will take humans with it. Then a few million years down the line new speciation will fill all of the ecological niches in whatever equilibrium arises. The planet and life themselves are unlikely to be completely wiped out, absent some future technology we can’t yet imagine.

As long as you don’t have any attachment to anything more narrow than “all life on earth” (e.g. your family, language, city, country, culture, species, ...) thriving for a long time into the future, there’s no reason not to just shrug at whatever impending apocalypse.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by akvadrako on Thursday December 21, 2017 @06:20AM (#15977968)
Interesting wording - I indeed don't have any attachment to the things you mention. I do want intelligent life (for now, humanity) to survive and stay powerful, but I'll take the bet that we're adaptable enough to manage even if 90% of the other species perish.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by dragonwriter on Thursday December 21, 2017 @02:20AM (#15977049)
> I think species have died at such rates before, during earlier mass extinction events.

No, they haven't; extinction rates in the current mass extinction event are much higher than previous ones.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by bighi on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:38PM (#15971800)
You dying at mid 30s instead of living until your 80s and 90s is also a natural thing. It's not desirable just because it's natural.

But putting in practical terms of "what do I have to gain?", let me say this: every species is carrying unique genetic information that we can learn and employ to our advantages. Maybe a particular species doesn't have anything we can use right now, but might have in the future. Letting it be extinct mean we lose that information forever.

Genetic information is like nature's source code. Now imagine we can't write code, we can just use what's already out there. Every time a species dies, it's source code forever lost.

Like... plants in the Amazon forest. A lot of them served as the material for medicine. We used their "source code" to fight diseases, and fix human problems. And we are losing genetic source code we never even had time to analyze yet!

There are animals that can kind of rejuvenate, and they never die of old age. Imagine being able to "steal" their code and use it to make our health better! If they go extinct, we lost that source code. Forever.

There's no going back, no un-extinction. And we can't go to other planets to analyze their animals, since we haven't found alien life yet. All we have is the life that is available, and we're getting rid ot that life fast.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by adrice727 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:52AM (#15971241)
You have to consider the period of time over which those species became extinct. Per E.O. Wilson, we're losing species at a rate that is ~1,000 times faster than anything in the past. If it continues, the loss in biodiversity will lead to the breakdown of many ecosystems that we depend on for survival.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by njarboe on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:17PM (#15971554)
The species extinction rate is very high at the moment, but large impact events probably produce a higher rate and larger ecosystem disruption. The Chicxulub impact extinction event was a much worse than our current situation.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by jl6 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:41PM (#15971826)
Damning with faint praise if the best we can say about our actions is “hey, at least we’re not as bad as this globally cataclysmic asteroid impact”.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by oceanghost on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:55AM (#15971271)
I've always thought that about pandas. They dont have a mating instinct and have a very difficult diet in terms of effort required per calorie.

And they're going out of business. Isn't that evolution?

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by Bartweiss on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:07PM (#15971429)
An interesting read on this: https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3azkqx/til_na...

The short version - pandas are just find for their habitats, and aren't going out of business.

The traits of pandas sound odd, but they're actually common to lots of highly-successful animals. They mate just fine in the wild and are bulk feeders that can easily consume lots of low-efficiency food. Their population hasn't been in any kind of steady decline, but has plummeted twice, each time when large portions of their habitat were destroyed.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by zhengyi13 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:12PM (#15971489)
I realize Reddit comments are not generally citation worthy, but maybe read this one, and rethink what you've just posted?

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2rmf6h/til_t...

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by sandworm101 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:11PM (#15972139)
They mate fine. Most of the problem has been linked to their zoo habitats, at least in the west. They were so precious that they weren't given the climbing structures (ie trees) to properly exercise in case they fall. The Chinese give them lots of climbing exercise and are breeding them just fine. Give humans too much food and no exercise and they stop breeding too.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by burkaman on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:13PM (#15971506)
Natural doesn't mean good. Climate change is natural in that humans arose naturally and have mostly followed our instincts. What we care about is keeping the environment in a state that works for us, not just letting natural processes play out.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by xkcd-sucks on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:31AM (#15971017)
Maybe the critically endangered species are not competitive with humans so they're cute and nice, while the species that thrive are competitive with humans so they're ugly, dirty and scary?
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by Xeoncross on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:47AM (#15971192)
> 4,500 species are critically endangered right now

How many new species has evolution produced in that time? Zero?

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by sethgecko on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:55AM (#15971275)
Are you implying that the more species in existance the better? If so why?
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by adjkant on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:59AM (#15971325)
Do you want to live in a world without any other living things? How many living things do you want? Is life less interesting if there are only two types of living beings?

I think that the world as we know it is valuable to us because we enjoy it, and nothing more. If we can't appreciate the beauty of life (most of us can't persist on the pure beauty of mathematics or conceptual analysis), what's the point?

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by smhost on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:15PM (#15971526)
I agree that biodiversity is a source of joy and education for me, and I'd add that it's also because we know something about ourselves--we know of the insatiability, the psychopathy, and the destructive nature that comes hand-in-hand with classical capitalism. Many of us see our conservation efforts as a necessary opposing force and as a way of saving ourselves from ourselves.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by ogdoad on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:41PM (#15972450)
Only two creatures isn't really possible. It isn't even an ecosystem, it's a Game of Life simulation.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:47PM (#15973053)
Yes, this sounds a lot like a Mars colony.
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by adjkant on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:40PM (#15973599)
And you think that would be a fulfilling life if it wasn't exploring a new planet and shaping it to the way we want?
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @04:25PM (#15973958)
In terms of exploring a new planet, by the time people land on mars, the area they land on would have been explored by spacecraft and rovers in high detail.

In terms of shaping a planet the way we want, we can do that on earth, and more so if we figured out how to live without being dependent on other earth organisms.

Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by adjkant on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @04:28PM (#15973982)
You didn't answer the question. Is that life fulfilling? And is it so for most / all of the population?
Re:We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill by QAPereo on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @11:29AM (#15970994)
Accelerated by us, and about to consume us whole.